---

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the House will be relieved to know that I have no intention whatsoever of talking about hedgerows as there is no one less qualified than I to do so. However, it is my understanding that the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, is proposing to retire from the Front Bench, whatever the result of the election. As one who has faced him across the Table from the other Dispatch Box on many occasions, I wish to pay tribute to him for all the work he has done for his party but even more for the House as a whole.

I was going to say that the noble Earl has always been courteous, but he has not actually; he is quite capable of being very rude indeed, and indeed being personally rude on occasion. However, he gets away with it because he has a wonderful aura of authority which he carries around with him and which is the subject of great admiration on all sides of the House. He has been a most distinguished servant of the House and of his party. We wish him well in whatever he chooses to do.

Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I associate myself totally with everything that has been said about my noble friend, who is also almost my neighbour. However, I wish to say a few words about hedgerows. I declare two interests: one as chairman of the Council for the Protection of Rural England, and, secondly, as a Suffolk farmer.

I suppose in declaring the second interest I should also say one or two things about hedgerows. First, in my early days of farming I behaved in rather a vandalistic way and took out hedgerows. I now much regret having done that. That was 25 years ago. Since that time I have tried to replace them. I have planted a large number of them and they have done extremely well. The only reason for saying that is that I think it shows that sinners can be brought to repentance in these matters.

I know the difficulties which my noble friend and my right honourable friend have had in bringing forward this legislation, which has been controversial. However, I believe that much of the controversy which inhibited my noble friend and our right honourable friend from bringing forward legislation which I should have liked to have been able to welcome wholeheartedly has been the idea that the conflicts between farming and the land-owning interests, on the one side, and the conservation interests, on the other, cannot be reconciled. I think that is a misapprehension. I believe that it is perfectly possible to farm economically, profitably, sensibly and in an environmentally acceptable way. Furthermore, I believe there are increasing numbers of farmers who are farming in that way, so the trend is in the right direction.

In fact most of the damage that has been done to our landscape in the past has not been done by ordinary working farmers. In the early 1970s it became

20 Mar 1997 : Column 1173

fashionable for institutional investors to buy land for which they paid absurd prices. They did so because it was fashionable to have land in their portfolios. They would then set targets for a rate of return on the land which meant that the managers they employed to achieve the rate of return massacred the landscape. That was tragic and it is much regretted by all of us.

Of course I welcome the fact that there are some regulations because there is a big difference between having some and having none, but I cannot say that they make an awful lot of sense as they are drafted at the moment. They have some good aspects. I shall mention first the good aspects. The fact that parish councils are to be consulted is a big plus. I hope very much that active parish councils will take a close interest--using this legislation and their right to be consulted--in urging local authorities to scrutinise the applications, which in general there will have to be, for the destruction of hedgerows.

However, as has been pointed out by the noble Baroness opposite, unfortunately only a small proportion of hedgerows are covered by the legislation. It astonishes me that the regulations refer to hedgerows which have existed for 30 years or more. However, young hedgerows are every bit as important and often--as my own newly planted hedgerows have been--have been planted with public money. It seems to me quite wrong to frame regulations for the protection of hedgerows which do not prevent the destruction of hedgerows, for which the taxpayer has helped to pay. That does not make sense to me.

I do not understand the penalties for illegally pulling up hedgerows. The maximum fine for defying a pre-preservation order is £20,000. The maximum fine for illegally and wilfully taking out a hedgerow which is protected is only £5,000. I simply do not understand that. The important point is that hedgerows are a crucial part of the landscape of this country. We cannot afford to make the landscape less attractive for our children and our children's children. Although the intention behind these regulations is moving in the right direction--and I would even go as far as to say that my right honourable friend's heart is in the right place, although I suspect I risk a tremendous reproof for saying that, and perhaps my noble friend's heart is also in the right place--the regulations are disappointing. I hope that whoever wins the election--obviously I hope very much it will be my party--will have another look at these regulations and will ensure that they are made much more satisfactory in terms of achieving the objectives which I believe we all share.

Earl Peel: My Lords, at the outset I had no intention of making any comment on these regulations, which I welcome. However, having heard today that my noble friend Lord Ferrers will no longer speak from the Front Bench, I wish to add to the tribute which has already been paid to him. I describe myself as an ordinary Conservative Back-Bencher who has been involved with environmental matters, and thus I am closely connected with the interests of my noble friend. I wish to pay tribute to the enormous care he has taken in listening to

20 Mar 1997 : Column 1174

what those on his Back-Benches have said to him over the years. I am sure he would be the first to agree that he has not always listened as closely as perhaps we would have liked, but he has always shown a great deal of interest in what we have had to say--sometimes that has been fruitful and sometimes it has not. I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for the considerable interest that he has shown in the concerns that have been expressed from these Benches.

I suppose I had to look for an excuse to comment on the regulations. My excuse runs something along these lines. Whereas I broadly welcome the regulations, hedgerows in themselves are not necessarily a conduit for wildlife. Hedgerows must be properly managed. I wonder whether there will be guidelines or some sort of encouragement for people to look after hedgerows in a constructive fashion. I hope this question is not a "fast ball" because I would not wish our relationship to end on that note. But what sort of assurances can he give the House that hedgerows will not only exist-- I welcome that--but will be managed properly?

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am deeply grateful for what your Lordships have said about these regulations, and for the kind remarks by my noble friend Lord Peel and the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, and I crossed swords periodically on a number of occasions when I had the privilege of being in the Home Office. I always enjoyed those occasions. If I may say so, the noble Lord always treated me totally fairly, straightforwardly and courteously, even if at times it was savagely. I am grateful to him for that. I look forward to seeing him sitting on those Benches again--and having the same problems as he has had recently. I watched the noble Lord deal with my noble friend Lady Blatch. I have never forgotten the courtesy that he displayed to me. I am grateful to him for that and for his kind words.

The noble Lord said that I had an air of authority. I did not know that. One does not know these things. I sometimes think that if one brought a skunk into the room, everyone would know it because a skunk gives off an awful smell; but the skunk does not know that because it is natural to him. All I can say is that I am not aware of all these wonderful things that the noble Lord said. I think that it is a figment of his imagination. I am sure that he would not say it at two o'clock in the afternoon.

Dare I come to the noble Baroness, Lady Hilton? The noble Baroness was deeply disappointed. My goodness, my Lords! She does not realise how lucky she is to have these regulations. They appeared like a whale out of the water yesterday afternoon. No one thought that they would appear. It was thought that they were lost down the pipe as a result of the forthcoming general election. But they have come. And what does the noble Baroness say? She says, "We are deeply disappointed. They only cover 10 per cent.". The noble Baroness has not done her homework properly: the regulations will cover 20 per cent. She said, "There is no encouragement for maintaining the hedges". My goodness me, my Lords--what does the noble Baroness want? Does she want to pay people grants to maintain the hedges?

20 Mar 1997 : Column 1175

The noble Baroness said that there is no support for young hedgerows. As I explained to her, 400 more miles of hedgerows are planted than are grubbed up. I do not see why we have to encourage that support. Then she said that there are only four weeks for the local authorities to give their views. The noble Baroness is wrong on that: there are six weeks. If she cared to read all 25 pages of the regulations she would understand a little more about them.

My noble friend Lord Stanley did not declare an interest! He is a farmer. I bet that he has grubbed out some hedges in his time; but he did not say anything about that.

---