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Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, we believe that people in the situation of Rebecca Halliday are, broadly speaking, known to us and are now claiming benefit. The House will recall that Rebecca Halliday was on the old attendance allowance which did not have the lower rate that was introduced with DLA. Once DLA was introduced in 1992 future claimants were entitled to the lower rate and therefore would already be within the system, unlike Rebecca Halliday at the start of her claim. Secondly, since the commissioner's decision in October 1994, this information has been collected. As a result of the court decision of December 1996 the 3,000 or so people in the system whose cases were similar to Rebecca Halliday's case have had their claims met in full. However, having said that, my noble friend Lord Ashley is right to remind us that there may well be people already known to the Benefits Agency who would benefit from the outcome of this case but have not already done so. We have a responsibility within what is called the LEAP framework--the legal entitlement and administrative practice framework--to consider the question of entitlement, a responsibility we take very seriously, and we are doing so.
Lord Marsh: My Lords, does the Minister accept that at first sight to lay people the implications of this judgment financially could be massive in general application? If we have misunderstood, can she say so, and can she give any indication otherwise of what the potential cost could be?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I had hoped that I had to some extent addressed that question in my previous answer. There were 3,000 people in the pipeline, if I may use that rather ugly phrase, who were in a similar situation to Rebecca Halliday. Paying the arrears on their cases has come to some £3 million. We do not expect there to be a huge number of additional people, partly because they are already in the system and partly because Rebecca Halliday's situation arose before DLA was introduced. Now that there is DLA and its lower rate of benefit, which was not available when Rebecca Halliday took up her case--she was on the old attendance allowance--we do not believe there are very many people still in the pipeline for this judgment. At the moment we believe that the numbers are in the order of about 3,000. There may be others. The cost so far is about £3 million and we are not expecting it to rise very much above that. That is our understanding at the moment.
Lord Rix: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the mobility and attendance allowances have been of the
greatest possible help to disabled people since their introduction? Have the Government any plans to encourage their take-up in the months and years ahead to enable people with disabilities to take their rightful place in society?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am pleased to confirm from my personal knowledge that that is indeed the case. I am fully aware of the importance disabled people attach to these benefits in meeting the extra costs of their disability. DLA will account for nearly £8 billion of the Department of Social Security's expenditure this year and more than 3 million people will be receiving help under DLA and attendance allowance. The noble Lord raised the question of take-up. Disabled people can get help with claiming these benefits from many sources such as disability organisations and the CABs. Most importantly, they can access, as I hope they will do, the Benefits Agency's free inquiry line--I shall give the number so that it goes into Hansard--on 0800 88 22 00 for information, advice and help with their claim forms.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the generous £8 billion paid in DLA and attendance allowance is as a result of the policies of the previous Government? Do I take it from her reply that she does not believe that the judges have actually gone beyond the original policy intent? If judges do decide to go beyond the original policy intent, is it incumbent on them to think about where the money is to come from? Lastly, what cuts will she make elsewhere in the social security budget in order to accommodate what I have to tell her will be a great deal more than £3 million of extra expenditure?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am happy to pay tribute to the previous Administration for introducing DLA and attendance allowance. It was well judged and they should take the credit for it. However, the result of court cases can sometimes mean that the purpose of any benefit--I do not just mean this one--can be drawn wider than Parliament originally intended. If that is the case, that has to be reviewed and, if necessary, refocused.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, as we have time, perhaps I may come back and say that if, as a result of the review, the Government decide they ought to amend the legislation to bring it back into the form Parliament intended, the noble Baroness will have the support of this side of the House.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I did not suggest that we were going to refocus this benefit. However, as the noble Lord will recall from our previous exchange on the matter, we are in the autumn moving into a major strategic review of all benefits, including disability benefits. I am sure that questions such as these and the extent to which benefits meet the
needs of disabled people will be taken into consideration. At that point I shall most certainly welcome the support of the noble Lord.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, can the Minister assure us that when disabled people ring 0800 88 22 00 there will be a person at the end of the line and not a disembodied voice telling them to ring somewhere else?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I have to confess to the House that I have not used the inquiry line number. I shall go out and use the line and see for myself.
Lord Ashley of Stoke: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, while I appreciate the tone and content of her reply, my information is different from hers? I am told that a considerable number of people are not receiving the higher benefit. They should be seeking it but they do not know about it. There are financial implications--the noble Lord, Lord Mackay, was right to refer to this point--as the difference is between £13 a week and £33 a week. If large numbers are involved there will be severe financial implications for the Government. But the law is the law. The House of Lords has now pronounced that this new interpretation of the law should stand. Therefore, these people should be paid.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, my noble friend is right. Under the legal entitlement and administrative practice framework we have an obligation to review cases known to us. We shall certainly be doing that.
Law Officers Bill [H.L.]
3.26 p.m.
Lord Carter: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I beg to introduce a Bill to enable functions of the Attorney-General and of the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland to be exercised by the Solicitor-General; and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.--(Lord Carter.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.
Liaison Committee
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to advise the House on the resources required for select committee work and to allocate resources between select committees; to review the select committee work of the House; to consider requests for ad hoc committees and report to the House with recommendations; to ensure
effective co-ordination between the two Houses; and to consider the availability of Lords to serve on committees;That as proposed by the Committee of Selection the following Lords together with the Chairman of Committees be named of the Committee:
L. Allen of Abbeydale, L. Belstead, V. Cranborne, L. Jenkins of Hillhead, L. Kimball, L. Morris of Castle Morris, L. Richard (L. Privy Seal), L. Weatherill, L. Wigoder;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers.--(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Consumer Guarantees: ECC Report
3.28 p.m.
Lord Hoffmann rose to move, That this House take note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on Consumer Guarantees (10th Report, Session 1996-97, HL Paper 57).
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, by your Lordships' leave, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the report of the Select Committee of the European Communities on the proposal for a directive on consumer guarantees.
The object of the proposed directive is to require all member states of the European Union to introduce into their law certain minimum rights for consumers who have bought goods which are defective or are not in accordance with the way in which they were described. This is a matter of considerable importance for the ordinary citizen and the committee therefore took evidence from a large number of people and has produced a detailed report.
The clearest way in which I can describe the effect of the proposed directive is to give your Lordships a brief sketch of the present position in English law and then say how it would be affected by the directive. In English law a consumer who buys something in a shop and then finds that it has a defect may have two kinds of remedy. First, he may have the benefit of a guarantee from the manufacturer. That will usually be a piece of paper in the box headed "Guarantee" in Gothic letters which states what the manufacturer promises to do; whether it is for six months or for a year, whether it covers only the replacement of parts or labour as well, how soon claims must be notified, and so on. That guarantee may be included without extra charge, but nowadays one is quite often offered a longer period of guarantee in return for an extra payment. The directive calls these guarantees commercial guarantees.
In addition to any guarantee which may be given by the manufacturer, a purchaser also has rights against the shop. Buying goods is a contract with the shop and the Sale of Goods Act 1979 automatically writes into that contract certain obligations on the part of the shopkeeper which are called implied terms. The most important of these is that the goods will be free from defects, they will be in accordance with the way in which they were described and they will be reasonably fit for the purpose for which they were sold. Shopkeepers are sometimes surprised to be told that they are legally liable for selling goods which do not comply with these obligations, but that has been the law of England for a very long time.
If the goods do not comply with the seller's obligations, a buyer in England may have one of two remedies. The first is to cancel the contract, return the goods and get back his money. The second is to keep the goods and get compensation in money, which English law calls damages. A person who wants to return goods has to act fairly quickly. If he uses them, even for quite a short time, he loses the right to cancel the sale and he can only obtain financial compensation. That will usually be the difference between what he paid and what the goods were actually worth; for example, it would amount to what it would cost to repair them and to put them into the condition in which they should have been. The claim for damages can be brought at any time within six years after the purchase, but of course the seller will only be liable if the failure of the goods is due to some defect which was present at the time when they were sold. He is not going to be liable for accidents, wear and tear or things that happen afterwards.
That is a brief outline of the present English law on the subject. It is the result of many centuries of development of the common law. It is the result of a famous statutory codification of the common law at the end of the 19th century and a number of amendments over the past 25 years, which were made on the recommendations of the Law Commissions of England and Scotland. It is generally thought to work in a satisfactory way and to preserve a fair balance between the interests of consumers on the one hand and of retailers and manufacturers on the other.
The proposed directive will change this system in a number of ways. First, it will lay down some minimum requirements about what I call commercial guarantees. The main purpose is to ensure that the piece of paper with the Gothic lettering and so forth does actually give the consumer some extra rights and does not merely reproduce or even reduce the rights which he would have had against the shop under the contract. This is not really a problem in England, where the law already covers making misleading statements and does not allow sellers to reduce the consumer's rights.
The most important changes which the directive proposes to make are in the law concerning the rights which consumers have under their contract with the shopkeeper. In the first place, the directive coming from Brussels approaches the scheme of rights in a way which is based on traditional continental ideas derived from Roman law. My noble and learned friend Lord Steyn, who was a member of the sub-committee which
prepared the report, and who is learned in the Roman-Dutch law, tells me that you cannot really understand the directive until you realise that it is derived from the remedies which were available in ancient Rome to the buyer of a defective slave. In continental law, following the Roman law, there are two traditional remedies for buyers of defective goods: cancellation of the contract or, alternatively, reduction of the price. And both of these are usually available for a maximum of one year after the purchase. In some member states the rules are even more restrictive.In respect of standard rights against the shopkeeper, the directive proposes to change the law in four main ways. First, the buyer should have a remedy for any defects which appear during a period of two years. So from a continental point of view, that doubles the existing protection. That will offer consumers on the Continent a very considerable improvement. But in England, as I have mentioned, the consumer already has six years.
Secondly, the buyer should be entitled to choose among four remedies. Two will be available for one year after purchase: to cancel the contract and get your money back or to ask for the goods to be replaced. The other two will be available as long as the defect appears within two years: to obtain a reduction in the price or to require the goods to be repaired. For English consumers, this would be quite a substantial change because at present, as I have said, the right to cancel the contract is usually lost after quite a short period, but under the directive it would last for a year.
Thirdly, there will be a presumption that any defect which emerges within six months was present when the goods were sold. At present, in English law, the burden is on the consumer to prove that the defect was present when he bought the goods and was not the result of misuse or ordinary wear and tear. So that, too, will alter the balance somewhat in favour of the consumer.
Fourthly, the consumer will have no claim unless he notifies the defect to the shop within one month of the date on which he discovered it or should reasonably have discovered it. There is no such provision in English law. Of course, as a matter of common sense, if you go back to the shop and say that your fridge developed a defect over a year ago but you did not bother to tell them, you may have some difficulty in being believed. But there is no rigid rule about a notification period and United Kingdom consumer organisations are alarmed at the prospect of having one. In particular, what does it mean to say that one should reasonably have discovered a defect? What about the lawnmower which you buy in February? When should you have reasonably discovered the defect so that your month starts to run? What about the Christmas present which you buy in October?
But I do not believe that in practice these problems are likely to bother us because the directive makes it clear that member states are entirely free to give their consumers greater rights, and of course that would include not insisting on the one month notification period. In their evidence to us the Department of Trade and Industry made it clear that it was not their intention to reduce the rights of English consumers in any way if they had to adopt this directive.
The evidence which the committee received from manufacturers and retailers was that in giving a one-year period for rejection or replacement and in creating the six-month presumption the directive went too far in favour of consumers. I suppose that one would expect them to say that. They said that it would encourage false claims and it would prove very expensive. Computer manufacturers, for example, said that because their technology was improving month by month and prices were falling, unusually, buyers would be tempted to manufacture complaints in order to upgrade their equipment for free. The motor manufacturers presented an alarming picture of the motorist who never needed to buy a new car because he demanded a replacement every year just before his one-year replacement period expired. The additional costs of all this would, of course, have to be added to the price of the goods for consumers generally and would damage the competitiveness of European manufacturers.
The committee's view was that these fears were probably somewhat exaggerated. There was little hard evidence for the existence of an army of potentially fraudulent consumers. The directive gave member states the right to exclude the remedies of cancellation or replacement in the case of what it called "minor defects". The impression that we gained from representatives of the Commission was that, on the whole, member states would be left to decide for themselves what amounted to "minor defects". As for the six-month presumption, the committee thought that in practice, a judge would be likely to find that a defect in consumer durables which showed up within six months was there at the time of sale unless there was some evidence of misuse; and there seemed some force in the point made by the Consumers' Association that the seller--the shop or the manufacturer--was in a better position to produce evidence on such technical questions than was the consumer. The difficulty was that there was very little hard evidence about the economic effect of the directive and the representatives of the Commission admitted that the research they had done on the likely financial effects on manufacturers and retailers was fairly perfunctory. They said they were commissioning a further study and I understand that they have recently appointed some consultants for the purpose.
If I can therefore sum up the committee's view of what one might call the negative side of the balance sheet, it is as follows. First, both manufacturers and retailers on the one hand and consumer organisations on the other in this country are reasonably satisfied with our present law. They do not think that it needs to be changed. Secondly, while the practical effect of the directive did not seem to the committee to be as drastic as some witnesses thought, it will undoubtedly alter the balance somewhat in favour of consumers and the cost of this change has not been properly assessed. Thirdly, the difference in approach--the continental language and grammar that will be introduced--is bound to unsettle the present English law and create some uncertainty until the new system has bedded down, at the expense of future litigants.
What is to be said on the credit side? What contribution will the directive make to the development of the Community and the single market? I think that it can be accepted that in a number of member states the rights which it gives to consumers will be a distinct improvement on what they now have under their national laws. But this does not in itself mean that a European directive is the appropriate way of bringing about such a change. Unless it has some effect upon the working of the single market, the principle of subsidiarity--if I dare mention that--would seem to require that the member states should be left to decide for themselves what rights their consumers should have.
The main argument put forward by the Commission was that the existence of certain minimum consumer rights everywhere would encourage cross-border shopping. It commissioned some studies in places like Luxembourg and Maastricht, where people often went shopping in neighbouring territories, and found that there were complaints about problems with defective goods, particularly motor cars and furniture. Of course people in Luxembourg, Maastricht or other border areas, are more likely to be cross-border shoppers than people in Birmingham. But I think it was not mere insularity which made the committee regard this argument with some scepticism. First, cross-border shopping is a minuscule part of the trade between member states. If you want to buy a German fridge, you buy it from an English shop. You do not take the car to Frankfurt, load the fridge into the back and bring it here. If you buy your fridge in an English shop, it is, of course, subject to our own consumer laws.
Secondly, the lack of uniformity in consumer remedies did not seem likely to be the main inhibition against cross-border shopping. The reasons you are more likely to buy your television in John Lewis than in Galleries Lafayette are to do with things like negotiating the transaction in French, getting a model which works in this country, bringing the thing back on the Eurostar and so forth; even if you are concerned about the possibility that it might break down, the sheer difficulty of taking it back to Paris is likely to loom larger than the details of your legal remedy. Thirdly, the directive is not intended to produce uniform consumer remedies over Europe. It sets out only a basic minimum, leaving member states free to give their consumers better rights. So, you have absolutely no guarantee that the rights that you enjoy in your home country will be the same as the rights available to you when you shop across the border.
In some respects, as I have already said, UK consumers already have better rights and the department says that it will stay that way. The result is that the committee felt that it could not give the proposed directive its unqualified recommendation or, for the moment at any rate, any recommendation at all. There seems to be virtually nothing to be said on the positive side of the balance sheet against the items which I have put to your Lordships on the negative side.
The Commission accepts that more work on the economic effect of the directive is needed and the committee has also made numerous detailed
recommendations for improving the drafting of the directive, if it should be adopted. The Government have recently published a response to the committee's report in which they largely accept the recommendations for improvement and agree with the committee's general views.I think that I can speak at any rate for the sub-committee which prepared the report when I say that I regret these somewhat negative conclusions. There is, I think, no doubt about the sincerity and enthusiasm of the officials of the Commission who have put in a good deal of work on the draft directive and were extremely helpful in attending the members of the committee and explaining to us what they had in mind. We learned a good deal from them and I hope that they also learned something from us.
I have no doubt that there are member states where the position of consumers is not so well-protected as in this country and I suspect--I say no more than that--that a case could be made for saying that a general upgrade in consumer rights would be to the advantage of trade throughout the single market. But that argument would have to be different from the one which was presented to us, better researched, based upon more solid evidence and in support of a better drafted directive. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House take note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on Consumer Guarantees (10th Report, Session 1996-97, HL Paper 57).--(Lord Hoffmann.)
3.48 p.m.
Lord Borrie: My Lords, in some ways the subject of this report is fascinating and important. It involves proposals to ensure that consumers who buy goods will receive goods that are as described and are of satisfactory quality. The Commission in Brussels is rightly concerned in the directive, as in a number of other initiatives, to establish its credentials in promoting the interests of the ordinary citizens of the European Union, including, in this instance, the economic interests of the ordinary private purchaser of goods of all kinds. The basic objective of ensuring that consumers across the Community have a minimum floor of rights whenever and wherever goods are bought in the Community is surely sound. It appears that for some member states improvements in consumer rights are needed. However, I suggest that it is not normally appropriate for a Community instrument to be a substitute for inadequate national legislative progress on such matters as these in one or more member states.
I had the honour to serve on Sub-Committee E during its inquiry into the Commission's proposed directive on consumer guarantees. We had the benefit of excellent chairmanship from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann. We also had the benefit of a wide range of views from both interested and disinterested parties. There was a general consensus that in the United Kingdom the work of the English and Scottish Law Commissions during the 1970s and 1980s followed by legislation had remedied most of the perceived difficulties and weaknesses in the law as to the rights of
consumers when buying goods and that a fair balance had been achieved between those rights and the interests of retailers and manufacturers.At one time the use of small print exclusion clauses could deny the consumer of one or more of his basic rights going back to the Sale of Goods Act 1893 and, in common law, beyond that. These rights ensure that the consumer has goods that are fit for their purpose and are of satisfactory quality, bearing in mind the description given to those goods and the price paid for them. It had been very unsatisfactory that in respect of major domestic appliances and goods such as motor cars those basic rights had not clearly included such concepts as a measure of durability and the consumer's entitlement to a remedy when the goods still worked but perhaps the decorative aspect of a brand new item left much to be desired.
Our law over the past two decades has been much improved. These problems have been dealt with by a number of Acts of Parliament, most recently the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994. For UK consumers who buy goods in the United Kingdom fresh legislation on these matters is not really needed. The unfamiliar concepts emanating from Roman-Dutch law and the unfamiliar grammar and vocabulary used in the proposed directive will require a good deal of clarification and interpretation to enable consumers, traders and their advisers to grasp the full import of the new rules.
There was a good deal of scepticism among some members of the committee and some witnesses as to the stated major purpose of the directive, namely, that it would encourage and facilitate cross-border shopping. Our witnesses regarded it as extremely doubtful whether the removal of differences in the substantive law of member states would be a significant factor in influencing people to shop more frequently or extensively across the borders of member states. For example, the Director General of Fair Trading suggested that other factors, most of which were not susceptible to legislation, played a far more significant part in limiting people's willingness personally to shop abroad. One refers to language differences, transportation problems, difficulties in returning purchases in the event of dissatisfaction and--if one thinks this far ahead--the need to seek redress for defects in a foreign judicial system. Even if in theory the differences in law in the various member states have a distorting effect on competition between member states and on the Common Market, the directive requires only a minimum level of consumer protection and leaves individual states to impose higher requirements if they wish. Therefore, if the directive was implemented in every member state differences between member states would still remain.
Once Sub-Committee E had considered the problems of different concepts and vocabulary it found much in the detailed provisions of the directive that was in substance familiar in terms of the basic rights of the consumer to have goods as described and of reasonable quality that conformed to his or her reasonable expectations. Some provisions in the directive would appear to give greater rights to the consumer than existing UK law. Despite my view that UK law is largely satisfactory for the UK consumer, I welcome the provision that if a defect becomes apparent within six months of delivery there
should be a rebuttable presumption that the defect existed at the time of delivery unless that presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or lack of conformity. As one witness said to us, that change in the burden of proof would end the irritating riposte of the shopkeeper when, say, one's shoes fall apart at the first wearing, "You've been using them. What do you expect?"The directive also gives the consumer a longer period than existing UK law within which to rescind the contract and require replacement of the goods, namely, a full year. I feel that here the proper balance of rights between the consumer and retailer does not justify such a change in current UK law which is based on the considered view of the English and Scottish Law Commissions of a decade or two ago that rejection of the goods and a demand for the full price back, as distinct from compensatory damages, should be available only within a fairly short period of the sale.
One of the apparent improvements in consumer rights in the directive is the provision that makes manufacturers' commercial guarantees legally enforceable. Since manufacturers are not now--nor would they be under the directive--legally required to give any such guarantee, I tend to agree with UNICE (Union of Industrial and Employers' Confederations of Europe) that if the directive were in force manufacturers might drop the use of guarantees perhaps in favour of some other kind of marketing incentive to avoid the new rule. It would be a pity if the directive when enforced in member states' laws had that counter-productive effect.
There are also provisions in the directive that involve a reduction in the rights of UK consumers as they are at present. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, said, a two-year limitation period is a good deal less than the present six years provided for in UK law. If it becomes law that a consumer must notify any defect in goods bought within one month of such defect being detected or that it ought to have been detected in that time, it will create a great deal of difficulty, especially if goods are bought in one season of the year for use in another or are bought as a gift to be used several months later by another person. As the noble and learned Lord pointed out, there is a provision in the directive that a member state may adopt more stringent provisions in favour of the consumer, not the other way around. Therefore, if UK law implements the directive it need not narrow consumer rights to cases where there is notification within the one-month period.
When the Commission gave evidence to us it recognised that the directive was not, as it presently stood, satisfactory. There is to be further research and analysis, including a very important study of costs and implications. I do not know whether in the light of further evidence the case for the directive will be made out. At present it is not.
4 p.m.
Lord Aldington: My Lords, I shall start, as I think all speakers will wish to start, by thanking the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, for what, in all humility, I would wish to say was a model introduction of a report such as this, and for his brilliant chairmanship of the inquiry that led to it. I also pay tribute to the noble Lord,
Lord Borrie. With his great up-to-date experience of fair trading and so forth, we were lucky to have him on the committee. Those of us who witnessed his contributions pay tribute to the care with which he approached the subject and the help which he gave to those who, like me, are laymen in these matters.I noticed that during the noble Lord's speech there was one point upon which he thought that UK law might be improved along the lines of the directive. I do not believe that he would disagree with what the noble and learned Lord said--"If that is so, then why not do it here? Why wait for the Commission to do it?" Surely that must be right. I shall return to that point in a moment.
I have just one or two preliminary observations to make as a layman member of the committee which is composed of distinguished practising lawyers, judges and others. It was an enormous privilege to sit for four years with one or two other lay noble Lords on Sub-committee E, and to witness the contribution that such an unrivalled gathering of legal knowledge and wisdom can make to the study of problems that arise as a result of proposals that come from the European Community.
I should like to interpose here merely to say that on occasions we went outside our terms of reference and studied problems that arose on proposals from the EU. I am amazed that in this new Parliament--I have told the Chairman of Committees that I shall say this--this important committee still has its archaic terms of reference. Under its terms of reference it seems to be debarred from examining EU proposals, even though it is now agreed that one of its sub-committees will be concerned solely with the third pillar proposals, which are EU proposals and outwith the committee's terms of reference. I make that point with the intention of helping the House authorities. I am not trying to embarrass the Minister who is to reply. He is an old golfing friend, and I am delighted to see him in his place holding his important office. I do not remember any debate such as this being responded to by a former Commissioner. I look forward to hearing him.
During my service on the committee the chairmen have been brilliant. The chair has been held by distinguished Law Lords and by my noble friend Lady Elles whose chairmanship was every bit as brilliant and who lived up to her great reputation for her study and knowledge of European matters. The House, and in particular the committee, owes an enormous amount to its successive legal advisers who dealt with a mass of paper in the most wonderful way.
A further preliminary point that I wish to make harks back to an occasion when I ventured to divide your Lordships' House on a procedural matter. It is one of the quirks of your Lordships' rules that no sooner has a layman such as myself begun fully to understand the methods and purposes of this learned committee, than he is rotated off it by a rule made by the House and imposed upon the Select Committee, regardless of the circumstances. The principle upon which I divided the House a few years ago was its unwillingness to delegate to its Select Committees the right and power to look after their own procedures. If a Select Committee wishes
to get rid of a co-opted member such as myself, it should have every right to do so. But to be forced to do so at the time when one begins to be effective is mad, unless it wishes to get rid of the layman at the time when he becomes capable of being a bit of a nuisance. I commend that point to the House. The result of the Division was 100 votes to 100. We drew, but of course it is useless to draw when one is making a proposal against the usual channels, because according to the rules of the House the usual channels win.I shall return to the report. I shall be brief because the noble and learned Lord described the area of the sales of goods law which is covered by the directive. It is a narrow but important one. It gives details of what the law should be and what it is in other places, and it also raises the important question of what legislation the Community should enact and what should best be left to national Parliaments.
As the noble and learned Lord said, the report contains a number of important recommendations and conclusions which I leave to the Government and, I hope, also to the Commission to study in case it decides to proceed with the directive after it has received the results of the study on the economic impact of the proposals, which it should have received before it made its proposals.
It is shocking that the Commission had to be pushed into having a thorough survey. That was not done by your Lordships' committee but by Ministers on the Council. It is good to know that the Council has had that effect. The result is that we must wait for a number of months before the conclusions of that second study are available. It is a second study because the Commission made some statistical inquiry earlier.
I have received, I expect like other noble Lords, complaints from the British Retail Consortium, and I received a copy of a letter from the CBI about the fact that the Commission has decided that it will not publish the name of the contracted consultant for fear that undue pressure might be brought upon him, nor will it publish anything about the working methods. That may be right or wrong, but I should like to know from the Minister whether he is satisfied with that.
The British Retail Consortium made a number of cogent observations. We should like to feel that the Government are happy about the procedure upon which the Commission has embarked, because in the balance that has to be drawn between the benefits and disadvantages of the directive, that study will be important. It is a study, not just of statistics, which are known to be a little weak in many places, but of all the information that Her Majesty's Government can give. I hope that it will include the contents of your Lordships' massive document.
In our conclusions at paragraph 116, we expressed the belief that a sufficient case for the directive has not been made. However, we do not rule out the possibility that after completion of the study an adequate case cannot be made. We do not believe that a case has been made out, first, on the ground of subsidiarity. The Government in their reply do not directly refer to that part of our conclusions. I would be grateful if the Minister would
give us his views on our argument in the report about subsidiarity. It is important that we are clear about the Government's position.The report goes on to ram home the subsidiarity point. It states:
- "we are not persuaded that these benefits"--
- "whether in the United Kingdom or in other Member States, need to be conferred by a Community instrument rather than national legislation".
I am not attacking the Commission. I was most impressed by its evidence and the way in which it went about its job and answered our points. I was pleased to hear the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, tell the House about that. I am not taking a hostile position and have never done so in any of the inquiries that I have conducted. I am an admirer of the quality of those who man the Commission, who are small in number.
They see the situation differently. They argue that the single market would gain from a degree of harmonisation of the laws on consumer protection. They set that out in their explanatory memorandum and confirmed it in answer to a question from me; No. 284. As the noble and learned Lord said, the Commission's case is made more difficult because for some reasons, including subsidiarity, it has limited the area of harmonisation and left a great deal of the law to member states. As the noble and learned Lord said, as a result, the ordinary consumer who enters a shop in another member state will not know whether he has the same protection as he has at home. That is the inevitable result of limiting harmonisation, as we have seen in respect of other inquiries. The problem will continue to arise as the principle of subsidiarity continues to bite. Therefore, we return to the fact that harmonisation is not complete and that we must temper and balance the benefits with the disadvantages.
The noble and learned Lord dealt with the case which was at one time put forward as the main reason for the directive on cross-border shopping. I was not impressed with that case and believe that we do not need to dwell on it further.
I have a final observation to make on what happens if the Commission and the Council decide to proceed with the directive on the ground that further evidence justifies it. The noble and learned Lord referred to the balance. It is very important that a balance is kept between the consumer, the manufacturer and the retailer. The evidence that we received showed that there is a danger to the retailer if there are too many firm rights of replacement and repair. If the balance goes too far in favour of the consumer that might be the case. The number of different brands held by a retailer might be limited, thereby limiting choice.
However, a more important matter is the effect upon manufacturers. This is not the time to do anything to reduce the competitiveness of European manufacturers, including British, in the world at large. Over protective legislation for consumers can result in that. I say "can"
because I was more impressed by the evidence of the computer manufacturers at Sony, Panasonic and so forth than were some of my noble colleagues. I was impressed by them because when I was connected with that type of industry I felt as they did. I believe that loading the cost on to high-tech manufacturers by 20 or 30 per cent. because of the need to carry more stock, have more repairers and so forth would be sheer madness. Of course that must be examined, but in arriving at the balance that must finally be struck I hope that Her Majesty's Government, the Council and the Commission will bear those important matters in mind.4.16 p.m.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I have had the pleasure of listening to the introduction of many reports from our European Communities Committee and have taken a general interest in them. I have applauded its reputation in this country and throughout the world, and certainly in other legislatures, for the value of its reports. However, until I decided to speak in today's debate and took the trouble, not to read every word of the report but to dip into it selectively, I had not appreciated the amount of work undertaken by the committees of this House on this and other matters.
I wish to begin by congratulating the committee, through the personage of its chairman the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, on a fine but exhausting job. When I look at the length and thickness of the report, the number of organisations which submitted evidence and those who gave oral evidence, and at the quality of the cross-examination not only by those with legal experience but by non-legal members of the committee, I am most impressed by the value and the quality of the report. I congratulate the committee.
There is not a Member of this House without some experience of guarantees. I refer to their quality and the need for them to be reliable, enforceable and fair. We are looking at an issue which may be arcane in some respects but which, nevertheless, touches everyone in this House and in the country. In preparing my comments for the debate, I read the evidence and submissions of the organisations with which I have some connection and which I respect. I wish to refer to the evidence from the Commission, from the Consumers' Association, from the British Retail Consortium and, interestingly, from the John Lewis Partnership. All that evidence and the chairman's introduction have one thread in common--no enthusiasm for what is proposed. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, used the words "sceptic" and "sceptical".
One is forced to ask what is the purpose of a directive of this kind. In this House, we are entitled to rely on the evidence given by a wide number of organisations. I ask the House to bear in mind what was said by the committee in its introduction at pages 7 and 8 of the report where it states:
- "This Report is about the rights and remedies of a consumer who buys goods which turn out to be defective or to be not in accordance with the way in which they were described".
- "The object of the Directive is to guarantee a uniform minimum level of protection for consumers throughout the Community when they buy goods".
The impact statement on page 71 adds flesh to the bones, but, in my view, the committee had it about right.
- "We share the doubts expressed by witnesses that the benefits which, according to the Commission, the Directive would bring, in particular increasing the volume of cross-border shopping and improving confidence in the Single Market, would in fact accrue".
- "The Directive might bring about improvements to the position of consumers in other Member States but we are not able to assess how beneficial any changes might be".
- "The Committee does not believe that a sufficient case for the Directive has been established. In particular, in relation to the principle of subsidiarity, we are not satisfied that the proposal passes the tests stipulated in the Edinburgh guidelines. As regards the position in the United Kingdom, the Directive might give some marginal benefits for consumers but these benefits would be outweighed by the disadvantages ... We are not persuaded that these benefits, whether in the United Kingdom or in other Member States, need to be conferred by a Community instrument rather than national legislation".
I move on now to examine some more of the evidence and, in particular, the evidence from the Consumers' Association. I go back to Casper Brook, 20 Buckingham Street, and the first issue of Which?. Therefore, I am well aware of the record and history of the Consumers' Association. It has my respect. From time to time, it may get it wrong but in general it is on the side of the consumer.
What did the consumers' voice say to the committee? The Consumers' Association said in evidence:
- "We are broadly happy with the high street consumer protection law we have in the UK. In many ways, UK law in this area gives consumers a higher degree of protection than that enjoyed elsewhere in the Union.
- Although the proposed Directive is much better than the Green Paper on guarantees for consumer goods and after-sales service and earlier drafts of the Directive, about which we had little enthusiasm, we are not convinced that the proposal will achieve its aims: boosting consumer confidence in the internal market.
- The proposed Directive seeks to guarantee a uniform minimum level of protection for consumers throughout the Union. That is a commendable aim. However, we doubt that giving consumers a 'minimum corpus of rights throughout the European Union' will do much, on its own, to encourage consumers to play a more active role in the operation of the internal market.
- Also, as far as UK consumers are concerned, the proposal is largely unnecessary at least in a domestic context".
I then turn to what was said to the committee by the British Retail Consortium. I warm to what it said because a prominent member of that consortium is the Co-operative Movement, with which I have a long association. The evidence of that movement was given to the consortium and fed into it.
The evidence of that consortium is at page 75 where it states that the,
- "BRC believes the proposed Directive will impose significant costs on retailers and manufacturers, reducing their competitiveness without offering commensurate benefits".
- "The BRC believes that the proposals will: ... Not assist the development of the single market through increased cross border shopping at the Commission claims ... contrary to the Commission's view be costly to businesses and ultimate will increase prices to consumers ... Create confusion and tension between consumers and retailers, damaging existing good relations ... Encourage dishonest consumers at the expense of other consumers ... Reduce choice, particularly to poorer consumers ... Create unnecessary waste".
The Minister who is to reply will be well aware of the evidence and will have read the report. But evidence from such powerful voices as those of the Select Committee, the Consumers' Association and the BRC and retail trade needs to be weighed very carefully.
Finally, I look at the evidence given by the John Lewis Partnership, which said:
- "The Directive's prime objective, as we understand it, is to improve the functioning of the internal market by facilitating cross border shopping. Its impact in this regard will be minimal. In our Oxford Street shop we serve a substantial number of European visitors. The main limitations on what they buy from us are practical questions of size, distance and technical specification. If the issue of returning faulty goods comes up, which is rare, the main concern is not the extent of their legal rights in the UK, but how to send the goods back".
- "the remedy should be related to the circumstances. For washing machines a repair will usually be the best answer, but a mirror which loses its silvering or a can opener whose handle breaks will need to be replaced".
Finally, it says in its evidence:
- "For all the reasons given above we believe that the draft Directive is fundamentally misconceived. It is unlikely that it can be satisfactorily amended. The Commission should be urged to withdraw it and produce another measure which more closely meets the need to overcome barriers to cross border shopping and establishing a sensible minimum level of consumer rights across the Union".
I listened with interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Aldington, said about the latest position of the Commission which, if not having second thoughts, is asking for further evidence and for research to be undertaken. I share the noble Lord's disquiet in relation to attempts that have been made by, among others, the British Retail Consortium to ascertain who is inquiring and whether or not one can submit further evidence. There seems to be a grey area, a barrier or an impasse so that it is very difficult to obtain information which may be helpful to the final shape of the directive. I hope that the Minister, who will be well briefed on this matter, will be able to tell us whether that is true or whether that situation can be put right.
For all those reasons, I believe that the House has been very well served indeed by the committee. The intentions of the directive are well-founded but the directive has got it wrong. This matter should be reconsidered and brought back suitably amended. The Minister will be able to tell us whether that is within the power of the Government or any other body in this country. I have great faith in the institutions of the Community but occasions must arise when it is
necessary to ask it to reflect before putting into effect something which will be costly to the consumer and not very beneficial. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to give us some answers to those questions.4.30 p.m.
Baroness Elles: My Lords, what a pleasure it has been to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, who for so long sat on this side of the House in comparative silence. If one good thing has come out of this change of positions in the Chamber, it is that we may now have the pleasure of hearing the noble Lord speak from time to time in our debates. Not only was it a delight to listen to the noble Lord, but he also displayed his considerable knowledge of the subject. Our thanks are also due to the legal adviser of our committee, Dr. Kerse, for his considerable care in the handling and drafting of the report on consumer guarantees, which is now being considered by your Lordships. I should also like to extend our warm thanks to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, for his valued chairmanship and his masterly introduction of the subject today. Indeed, his introduction almost made one wonder why any of us should bother to get up and speak and add more to what he had to say. However, our names have been tabled and we shall make our contributions to this short debate.
The report was published in March of this year so that some time has elapsed between the termination of the inquiry and today's debate. One of the matters which is therefore of concern--and this matter was raised both by the noble Lord, Lord Aldington, and by the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton--is to know what became of the further study which was to be undertaken by the consultant (unnamed, as has already been commented upon) and whether its conclusions, if any, may make any alteration to the draft directive and affect those views which are set out in the report. Although the announcement that there was to be an unnamed consultant was made some time ago, I have not yet met anyone who has seen anything that he has written and we do not know whether he has contributed any further to the state of the draft directive.
When considering the matter, there are one or two major questions which arise. The first is whether there is any need for the directive so far as concerns the United Kingdom. It is believed that the excellent Sale of Goods Act 1893, brought up to date in later Acts of 1979 and 1994, gives considerable protection to consumers in relation to retailers from whom they may purchase products. Although the new directive was introduced in particular to protect the consumer who engages in cross-border shopping throughout the European Union, it does not appear that consumers are impeded from doing so--or, indeed, that they have been impeded from so doing--on account of differences in consumer rights. In fact, on returning by air at different times over recent years through various airports within the EU, as well as by Eurostar, there does not appear to me to be any major impediment to the many thousands of travellers laden with carriers or bags bearing the names of shops in the country that they have visited. Of course, there have been some problems which seem to arise regarding a
minimal number of those who purchase cars or furniture. I believe that those are the two main items which have caused difficulties, as was mentioned by the noble and learned Lord.The second question concerns the benefits which would accrue to consumers following the adoption of the directive. The benefits set out at paragraph 15 on page 12 of the report do not appear to justify yet another piece of legislation, certainly so far as concerns the United Kingdom. The stated benefits include,
- "[strengthening] consumer confidence in the Single Market; [facilitating] cross-border shopping ... [simplifying] existing national rules"--
- "[bringing] Community law closer to European citizens".
A basic reason for the introduction of the directive must be to protect consumers better than they are already protected. Whether there would be an increase in cross-border shopping throughout the Community can only be assessed over time; for example, the introduction of a common currency in 2002 or 2003 could have an impact on the sale of goods across frontiers, but there does not appear to be any specific article in the directive which would encourage UK citizens to buy on the Continent rather than in this country. As stated in paragraph 22 of the report:
- "There are all sorts of other factors ... which probably have a much greater impact".
- "that the seller in broad terms is liable for defects in the goods which emerge within two years of the date of delivery of the goods".
Another point which is underlined in the report is the question of damages. That is not raised in the directive, though it is one of the primary remedies under English law to which the noble and learned Lord referred. According to a witness from the Commission, this could be left to member states,
- "to define, each of them, the weight and the extent of the compensation".
It was stated by the representative of AMDEA (the Association of Manufacturers of Domestic and Electrical Appliances) that,
- "the certain effect of this proposal will be to change every Member State's law, whilst ensuring that every Member State's laws remain different from everyone else's".
4.36 p.m.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, I was very much a lay member of the committee which produced the report. I echo the tributes that have been paid to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, for the skill of his chairmanship and for the expertise of our advisers and our Clerk. It seems to me that the broad issues contained in the report, and those arising from it, have been more than well dealt with by previous speakers. Perhaps I may raise one particular point which was just touched on by my noble friend Lady Elles. I refer to the apparent secrecy with which the Commission is setting up the extremely important independent study which it has promised; that is, a study of the likely economic impact of the proposed directive. I suggest that that secrecy is not only surprising and unnecessary, but that it is also likely to be damaging. Can the Minister say whether he agrees with me in that respect and, if so, will the Government press for openness on this critical point?
As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, and previous speakers said, and as the Government in their response to the report have agreed, it is by no means clear that the directive is necessary. Should the proposals in the current draft be implemented as they stand, it is possible that the disadvantages for consumers may outweigh the advantages and businesses across the European Union will carry considerably increased burdens.
The Commission has made it plain, and the United Kingdom Government in their response have agreed, that much will depend on the outcome of the further research on which the Commission is now embarking. In a letter dated 2nd May, the Commission informed the British Business Bureau that it is intended that the study will evaluate in a methodical way the economic impact of the proposal, identify and compare the possible costs and benefits, and examine the effects on the relations between distributors and producers. It is clear therefore
that what the research produces is likely to be absolutely critical in determining whether the directive goes ahead and, if so, whether alterations are likely.It seems to me essential--I should like to know whether the Minister agrees--that member states, consumers and business interests throughout the Union have confidence in the body which carries out the study. They must have confidence in its professionalism and integrity and, above all, its independence and ability to obtain the information that it requires so as to be certain that the research does not simply recycle the facts, figures, arguments and conclusions which have brought the Commission to the somewhat questionable position that it has so far reached.
How can all those most likely to be affected have that confidence when the Commission will not reveal whom it has appointed to do the research? In response to queries by the British Business Bureau, the Commission stated, again in its letter of 2nd May, that it had completed its evaluation of tenders for the study and was about to conclude the contract but that it did not intend revealing the identify of the chosen contractor. The contractor would have only the facts and figures already available upon which to work. The remainder of the three-page letter consisted of lengthy arguments defending the decision to maintain secrecy and to limit the scope of the information available--arguments adding up to anxiety that if the identity of the contractor was revealed it might be nobbled by interested parties or fed partisan facts and figures and so have its assessment compromised in some way.
That seems to me enormously unsatisfactory. A tendering process in the public sector should surely involve making public who is chosen as the contractor. The Commission's practice is normally to do just that. In tune with its commitment to openness and to protecting its own reputation for integrity, it publishes in the Official Journal the identity of the contractors it chooses after competitive tendering. Surely that should apply above all in this case. If the confidence of consumers and businesses across the Union is to be maintained, all those whose interests are at stake, including member states and taxpayers, need to know that the contractors are people of good reputation who, it is recognised, will not be nobbled by anyone and will be able to consider the facts and figures that they need to make a proper, independent report.
The Minister who will reply is an old hand in these matters. Can he give the House an assurance that the Government will press the Commission on this crucial point and request that the chosen contractor will be made public as soon as possible; and that that contractor needs freedom to seek out any facts or figures it requires?
4.44 p.m.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I believe that there is no subject on earth to which a Select Committee of your Lordships' House does not bring value. The report is of enormous value to consumer protection. It brings value to a scene which to the user is often clouded with confusion, where might has too
often been right and the movement from national to international, although necessary and inevitable, might not always seem to the consumer friendly or indeed efficient. Therefore we should all be grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hoffmann, and his committee. My noble friends Lord Aldington and Lady Carnegy of Lour claim to be lay members of the committee. In a group of expert lawyers, the lay member is often the consumer's friend.I praise, too, those organisations and groups which provided the comprehensive evidence which allowed the committee to do its work so thoroughly. I was sorry that the citizens advice bureaux were not among those giving evidence. That body is an important point of access to consumer law; and access for the consumer is extremely important. Noble Lords heard this afternoon of the problem for those claiming disability benefit. The citizens advice bureaux have always offered outstanding service when helping those with a complaint who do not know the first step to take. When considering whether this issue should extend over a European scenario, it is indeed important that we consider access to the law, whatever the scope of the law. Unfortunately most of us have heard Beethoven's symphonies while waiting to register a complaint.
The ideal consumer relationship is between the consumer and producer or provider. When that works there is no need for legislation. The best solution is for the relationship to work. I was delighted to learn that the committee considered that the concerns and exaggerations of manufacturers regarding the effect of effective consumer law on their products and profits were to some degree overstated. There would be a need to incorporate a margin for the delays and uncertainties involved when a directive was not fully determined. But that would not be helpful to the consumer. Competition is one of the best protections available to the consumer along with the desire of the producer-provider to see the customer return. That should be encouraged as a first line.
My noble friend Lord Aldington pointed out that handicaps to business help no one. They do not help the British economy; they do not help any other economy in Europe; and most of all they do not help the consumer. An efficient business will provide the goods that the consumer wants in the state that he wants them.
There was much questioning today regarding the aims of the directive and whether increasing cross-border shopping was defensible or likely to be achieved by changing the laws and harmonising sales of goods Acts. I share those doubts. For three and a half years I lived in that part of the United Kingdom which has a land border. The General Consumer Council of Northern Ireland gave substantial evidence backed by statistics of cross-border traffic. Some 650,000 people in the island of Ireland do cross-border shopping.
I contend that the example of Ireland provides proof that harmonisation of sales rights is not the key to the growth of cross-border shopping. When there was a cease-fire and the physical opening of roads, people flocked across the Border in both directions to shop, to the great benefit of the Northern Ireland economy, a
feature that is now much missed. The cease-fire ended and, although the roads stayed open, that traffic stopped. No legal changes were envisaged; it was a result of physical changes in the situation. The number of transatlantic flights that appear to be full of "shopaholics" indicate that the details of sale of goods legislation are not uppermost in the consumer's mind on this occasion. Where there has been growth in cross-border shopping; namely, mail order, which has not yet been mentioned, that legislation appears to offer protection to the consumer. If the directive is not to bring harmonisation, how will customers know whether they have extra benefits? What will be the benefit of the directive?
Many noble Lords raised the question of the further study planned by the Commission. Like my noble friend Lady Elles, I, too, welcome the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Graham, joins us as a speaker after a considerable period in this House. This is the first occasion that I have been involved in a debate in which the noble Lord has taken part--though I was fascinated to hear an ex-Chief Whip point out that he was unaware of the hard work going on in this House as regards committees--
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