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Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, once again we have had a non-answer from the Minister. It is quite extraordinary that when one puts questions, as we have, about arrangements for England and the other matters one does not get a single response that is relevant. I now have the White Paper. It has just been handed to me. I have had a moment to glance at it. It confirms that the Government intend to keep the position of the Secretary of State for Wales.

Lord Hooson: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I hesitate to intervene, but the noble Lord was to speak to the amendments, but the whole of his speech was devoted to other issues and not the amendments.

Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, I suggest that if the noble Lord reads the amendments he will see that they specifically deal with the matters that I raised.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. Does he agree with me that a reading of the amendments shows that, in the third line, Amendment No. 16 states,

That is also shown clearly in the fourth line of Amendment No. 31, which states,

    "indicating the potential constitutional implications of the establishment of such a Parliament".

Amendment No. 32 states,

    "including the reasons why it should not have tax-varying powers and indicating the potential constitutional implications of the establishment of such an Assembly".

I believe that my noble friend will agree with me that he did address these issues, as I did. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, has not read the amendments. Nor has the Minister read the amendments. He is clearly of the view that one does not need to answer the debate at all and all that one needs to do is to answer the amendments, but he did not even do that. If my noble friend says that he believes that to be totally inadequate, I absolutely agree with him.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I understand that the noble Lord is replying to the amendment. Perhaps I may respectfully remind your Lordships that this is Report stage.

A noble Lord: A speaker can give way.

Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, I was observing that I have had only a moment to glance at the White Paper, which refers to the intention of the Government to keep the Secretary of State, but does not have a section--as my

22 Jul 1997 : Column 1319

noble friend suggested that it would not--as to what the future constitutional arrangements and their effect on England might be.

Lord Parry: My Lords, I am a little baffled. I have been several times to the Printed Paper Office in order to obtain a copy of the White Paper and it is not on release. Are we not subtly disadvantaged by having one Member of the House who has it, good friend of mine though he is?

Lord Lucas: My Lords, I passed the White Paper to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell. It was released as soon as the Minister sat down in the other place. If the Printed Paper Office has not provided it then I have not followed the regulations.

Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, that is perfectly correct. The White Paper was embargoed until 15.30 hours and we are now well past that. It has been handed to me and I believe that I am entitled to refer to it. I have not had a chance to read it, but it does not address the issues referred to in the amendment.

I know that the Liberal Democrat Party now believes that its principal role is defending the Government. Indeed, sometimes during debates it appears to be its only role now. The Liberal Democrat Party defends the Government much more vigorously than anyone on the Labour Benches now defends them. Before he takes that line, the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, should read the amendments. It is positively insulting that the Minister should get up--

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords,--

Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, no, I am not going to give way again because I want to get on. I want to make one particular point. The noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, who replied to this debate, replied to the two points that I acknowledged at the start had been dealt with, because we are to have a Statement this afternoon. He did not address the other issues at all. It is an outrage that this House should be treated in that way. Therefore I press my amendment.

4.7 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 16) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 107; Not-Contents, 134.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Ashbourne, L.
Attlee, E.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Beloff, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Brentford, V.
Brightman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Cadman, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carew, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Crickhowell, L. [Teller.]
Cross, V.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Fisher, L.
Forbes, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gainford, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gisborough, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harrowby, E.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howe, E.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Jopling, L.
Kenilworth, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lindsay, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Milverton, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monson, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Nelson, E.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pike, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L. [Teller.]
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandford, L.
Savile, L.
Sharples, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Terrington, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Torphichen, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Wedgwood, L.
Westbury, L.
Whitelaw, V.


Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Annan, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Blyth, L.
Borrie, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Gallacher, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glasgow, E.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Headfort, M.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howell, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood, L.
Leathers, V.
Lestor of Eccles, B.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McConnell, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Nathan, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Parry, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Richard, L. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Robertson of Oakridge, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
St. Davids, V.
Sandwich, E.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurso, V.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

22 Jul 1997 : Column 1321

4.16 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 17 and 18 not moved.]

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