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Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I hope I may assist the noble Baroness because I was not trying to make a tedious point. The Scottish definition includes classroom and also work experience. The guided learning hours in the English definition might not include the concept of work experience. I was not clear whether it included that. The Scottish definition is more precise, and that is why I asked the question.
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, that is extremely helpful. In a more general sense we see gaining and developing skills that can get people off benefit and into work as absolutely central to the way in which we respond to the problems of long-term unemployment. Clearly, obtaining a skill will almost by definition increase employability. We do not want people to stay unemployed and on benefit to study indefinitely. JSA is not a source of funding for full-time students, nor should it be. Most people want to get back into work quickly and want to know what job opportunities are available to them. It is a question of judgment as to how much leeway we allow people to continue studying when a suitable job opportunity is available.
We expect all those on the pilots who are notified by the Employment Service of a full-time, permanent job--I do not mean just any job--to apply for it, even if that may occasionally mean giving up a course. However, people who are within a few weeks of finishing a course
or taking examinations will be able to turn down a job offer so that they can finish the course. We shall evaluate that aspect of the pilots extremely carefully.I shall now address comments made by my noble friend Lady Turner of Camden and the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton. The regulations allow anyone receiving JSA for six months or more to participate in the pilot areas. There is in fact no age requirement. Older people can take part, and indeed they should be encouraged to do so. It is part of lifelong learning, creating employability and avoiding large numbers of people in long-term unemployment, and the poverty and marginalisation that are entailed in that, to consider people whatever their age--
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. However, one knows the resistance of many employers to take on older people. Are my noble friend and her colleagues in the department conscious of that and are they seeking ways to encourage employers to give prospective, older employees a chance?
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, that is certainly a matter that I shall convey to my right honourable friend the Minister for Employment. I cannot give a precise answer as to whether there are any particular proposals to encourage the employment of older workers. However, as I say, I shall certainly raise that matter with my right honourable friend Mr. Andrew Smith.
I turn to another point made by my noble friend Lady Turner of Camden. She requested that sanctions should be handled sensitively. There are rules and sanctions governing the Workskill pilots which can result in loss of JSA for people who break the rules. People should not be allowed to waste time and money if they cannot be bothered to put in the time and effort needed to complete a course at taxpayers' expense. Sanctions will be imposed resulting normally in the loss of JSA for two weeks if people drop out of courses through misconduct or without a good reason. However, people who have merely chosen the wrong course will be able to leave it in the first four weeks without receiving a sanction. Obviously from time to time people will misjudge a course and start a course which is not suitable. Those who are genuinely unable to keep up with a course will also have a good reason for leaving it, as will those on an unsuitable course. Those sanctioned can apply for JSA hardship payments if they are in a vulnerable group.
My noble friend Lord Graham of Edmonton asked about savings. To take part in Workskill pilots a participant has to be in receipt of JSA for more than six months. This is based on the longstanding principle that savings are taken into account for means tested benefits. Income based JSA is not payable to those with significant savings of more than about £8,000. My noble friend Lord Graham of Edmonton mentioned the new deal and asked about the relevance of these pilots to the new deal. The Workskill pilots support our general approach on a new deal which seeks to improve employability and labour market prospects for young people who are unemployed for six months or more and for long-term unemployed people.
All four programme options for young people aged 18 to 24 will include education and training. One of the options is for full-time education or training. Those aged 25 or over who have been unemployed for two years or more will be able to undertake full-time education and training for up to a year and remain on JSA. We shall learn much from those pilots in implementing the new deal next spring.
However, the new deal will operate differently to these pilots. I should make that absolutely clear. The new deal for 18 to 24 year-olds is a compulsory programme aimed at helping that age group avoid benefit dependency. Our plans to allow the 25-year plus long-term unemployed to undertake education and training while on JSA is targeted to ensure that we deal with a particular problem. With the pilots we are looking at a voluntary entering into education and training for all age groups while on JSA. The pilots will allow us to assess the case for a change to the rules for all those on JSA.
My noble friend Lord Desai asked about fraud and said that we should not assume that people are trying to cheat. Of course we do not assume that people are trying to cheat. However, the Government are determined to bear down on fraud and abuse where they take place--that is only right. There is no question of assuming that in general people cheat, but I regret to say that some people do and we must tackle that when it occurs.
My noble friend Lord Desai and a number of other speakers asked how we would analyse the pilot schemes and referred to the importance of doing so properly. I hope I can reassure him by saying that they will be analysed in great detail. Monitoring starts at the beginning of the scheme and as well as collecting basic facts the participants will be tracked to see how the courses have affected their later employment prospects. That is important.
I believe that I have answered most of the questions that were put. I hope that I have done so. I conclude by reminding the House of the purpose of these regulations. This second wave of pilots will allow us to offer many more people the opportunity to undertake education or training while receiving JSA and to see what effects this has on their efforts to obtain and stay in work. They will play an important role in our review of the jobseeker allowance rules on education and training which we intend to go forward with as soon as possible. I commend them to the House.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until eight o'clock.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.30 to 8 p.m.]
Education (Schools) Bill
8 p.m.
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons reason be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons reason be now considered.--(Baroness Blackstone.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 1 to which the Commons have disagreed for the reason stated.
During Report stage we passed an amendment to Clause 2 of the Bill. This would require the Government to support all pupils with assisted places at free-standing preparatory schools through to age 13 regardless of whether they were given an assurance that they could hold the assisted place until the end of their time at that school.
The Commons have now considered this amendment and have disagreed with it,
I urge your Lordships to agree with the Commons.
We have made clear that we will use the discretionary power so that where the child was given a clear promise of a place to age 13, on the basis of the letter written by Peter Kilfoyle to the chairman of the Incorporated Association of Preparatory Schools on 1st April, that place would be honoured. It is clear that that has been the main concern of your Lordships.
But Amendment No. 1 goes further. It would require the Government to support all pupils with assisted places at free-standing preparatory schools through to age 13, regardless of whether a promise of a place was made. Of course some preparatory schools will have offered pupils a clear promise of a place to age 13 on the basis of the Kilfoyle letter. Subject to a check of the commitment given to the parents, and provided the parent wants the child to continue through to age 13, then we will provide support through to age 13. So, if there was the promise of a place to age 13, then we will honour that place.
But making the entitlement automatic would mean extra support at the expense of the taxpayer for a commitment that never existed. It would mean that some cases would receive support when no promise was made. That would not be a proper use of public money. There will be cases where no clear promise of a place through to age 13 was given. We must have a mechanism to identify these. The discretionary power will allow the detail of individual cases to be checked. It means that we can ensure that parents understand that, after age 13, they will not be able to take up an assisted place at a senior school. These points need to be verified. Only through the use of the discretionary power will there be a mechanism for ensuring that support goes only to the deserving.
There are no broken promises. We are honouring our commitments. I ask the House not to insist on its amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 1 to which the Commons have disagreed.--(Baroness Blackstone.)
COMMONS REASON FOR DISAGREEING TO THE LORDS AMENDMENT
[The page and line refer to Bill 10 as first printed for the Lords]
LORDS AMENDMENT
Clause 2, page 2, line 5, at end insert--
("( ) in the case of a pupil with an assisted place at a school providing education for children up to the age of 13 but not beyond, at the end of the school year in which he attains the age of 13; or")
The Commons disagree to this amendment for the following Reason:
Because it would alter the financial arrangements made by the Commons; and the Commons do not offer any further reason, trusting this reason may be deemed sufficient.
"Because it would alter the financial arrangements made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer any further reason, trusting this reason may be deemed sufficient".
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