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Lord Haskel: My Lords, at present for the purposes of companies trading it will be dealt with on the same basis as a foreign currency until we decide whether to join the European Monetary Union.
Lord Beloff: My Lords, has the Minister read the article by Professor Martin Feldstein of Harvard in the current issues of Foreign Affairs in which he points out that the EMU is likely to prove a massive disaster? In the light of that, does the Minister agree that any businessman transacting business in that currency deserves to have his head examined?
Lord Haskel: My Lords, I am afraid that I have not read the article by Professor Feldstein but I shall certainly do so. Businessmen cannot take these decisions in isolation. They are dependent upon their customers,
their suppliers, and what others in business do. If their customers or suppliers insist on using the euro those companies will have very little choice but to accept it.
Lord Barnett: My Lords, referring to the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, does my noble friend agree that anyone foolish enough to disregard the euro would be equally mad?
Lord Haskel: My Lords, I agree entirely with my noble friend. Any company that disregarded the euro would put itself at a competitive disadvantage.
Lord Marsh: My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that a number of noble Lords are slightly puzzled by this exchange? All companies are used to dealing in different currencies, whether it be dollars or any other. For once I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Barnett. Whether or not the UK joins the European Monetary Union, what is so peculiar about companies using the euro if it is available?
Lord Haskel: My Lords, there are no difficulties at all in companies dealing with the euro, as they deal with dollars, francs or whatever.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Question itself does not deal with transactions that are limited to the supply of and payment for services but refers to preventing,
- "British business from transacting business"?
In view of the fact that some time may elapse before formal entry into economic and monetary union, is it not wise for Her Majesty's Government to give the usual warning that the value of the euro, like other currencies, can go down as well as up and that there are certain risks attached to the settlement of transactions in any currency, including the euro?
Lord Haskel: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. The value of any currency can go up or down. The risk is the same for the euro as with any other currency.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am as puzzled as the noble Lord, Lord Marsh, about this exchange? It appears to me that if the euro comes about the City and manufacturing industry will deal in it as they deal in the yen, the dollar or any other currency. I suspect that his noble friend was really asking whether the euro would be legal tender if this country did not join.
Lord Haskel: My Lords, it will be legal tender as any other foreign currency. Many British citizens will start to use the euro very soon. For example, if they use
their credit cards on the Continent after the introduction of the euro it is likely that their accounts will be debited in euros.
Lord Swinfen: My Lords, does the Minister agree that all sound currencies are backed by a lender of last resort? Who will be the lender of last resort for the euro?
Lord Haskel: My Lords, I imagine that that will be a matter for the European bank.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that what worries some of us about the Question is the assumption that we are going into the single currency?
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Yes indeed, my Lords, if one looks at the Question. There is an assumption there that we are going into Europe. Will my noble friend confirm that the government position is, first, that we shall not enter into the single currency until there is economic convergence; and, secondly, until after there has been a referendum of the British people?
Lord Haskel: My Lords, I can confirm that we need a period of stability and settled convergence before membership can be considered. There will be a referendum of the British people.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, I return to my question about legal tender. I am aware that if I use my Visa card in Italy I can pay in lira, and I will then pay my bank in sterling. My question was: will the euro be legal tender in this country? Will I be able to go into a shop on my return and use euro notes rather than sterling? Those are my questions.
Lord Haskel: My Lords, not until we join the European single currency.
Business
3.1 p.m.
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard): My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m., my noble friend Lady Farrington of Ribbleton will, with the leave of the House, repeat a Statement that is to be made in another place on local government revenue finance. That will be followed by my noble friend Lady Hollis of Heigham, who, again with the leave of the House, will repeat a Statement on social security uprating.
Crime and Disorder Bill [H.L.]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision for preventing crime and disorder; to create certain racially aggravated offences, and to abolish the rebuttable presumption that a
child is doli incapax; to make changes to the criminal justice system; to make further provision for dealing with offenders; to make further provision with respect to remands and committals for trial and the release and recall of prisoners; to amend Chapter I of Part II of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 and to repeal Chapter I of Part III of the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997; to make amendments, designed to facilitate, or otherwise desirable in connection with, the consolidation of certain enactments; and for connected purposes.I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.-- (Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.
Committee of Selection
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Lord Burnham be appointed a member of the Committee in the place of the Lord Chesham.--(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Procedure Committee: Select Committee
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, on behalf of the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Burnham be appointed a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Lord Chesham.-- (The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ceremony of Introduction: Select Committee
Lord Richard: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That it is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to consider alterations in the ceremony of Introduction and to make recommendations.-- (Lord Richard.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Special Immigration Appeals Commission Bill [H.L.]
3.4 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons amendments be now considered.--(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
1
After Clause 6, insert the following new clause--
(".--(1) Where the Special Immigration Appeals Commission has made a final determination of an appeal, any party to the appeal may bring a further appeal to the appropriate appeal court on any question of law material to that determination.
(2) An appeal under this section may be brought only with the leave of the Commission or, if such leave is refused, with the leave of the appropriate appeal court.
(3) In this section "the appropriate appeal court" means--
(a) in relation to a determination made by the Commission in England and Wales, the Court of Appeal,
(b) in relation to a determination made by the Commission in Scotland, the Court of Session, and
(c) in relation to a determination made by the Commission in Northern Ireland, the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland.
(4) In section 33(4) of the Immigration Act 1971, after "1993" there shall be inserted "or section (Appeals from the Commission) of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission Act 1997".")
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 1. It may be helpful if I speak also to Amendments Nos. 2 and 4.
These amendments to the Bill will create a right of appeal from the Special Immigration Appeals Commission to the Court of Appeal on a point of law. The first new clause will provide an avenue of appeal from the Special Immigration Appeals Commission on a question of law where the commission has made a final determination of an appeal. The further appeal can be brought with the leave of either the commission or the Court of Appeal--and by either the appellant or the Secretary of State.
The appeal will be to the Court of Appeal if the commission makes its determination in England and Wales; to the Court of Session if it does so in Scotland; and to the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland if it has been sitting in Northern Ireland. Experience of the cases considered by the three advisers suggests that most cases are likely to be heard in England.
This additional avenue of appeal on a point of law will mirror the existing arrangements for such a right of appeal in respect of decisions of the Immigration Appeal Tribunal which was introduced in the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993.
Having considered the point very carefully we have accepted that in the context of the new commission it would be more satisfactory for appellants to be able to have points of law dealt with on appeal to the Court of Appeal rather than dealt with by way of judicial review. The latter can, of course, involve consideration of points of law by both the High Court and the Court of Appeal. The fact that the commission itself will be chaired by a High Court judge adds weight to that argument.
The second new clause and the other amendment made in the Commons are consequential. The second new clause simply ensures that the Lord Chancellor will be able to make rules which will govern the procedures to be followed when the commission receives applications for leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal.
The provision will be made in the same statutory instrument that will cover the other procedure rules provided for in Clause 5 of the Bill. The rules will be based very closely on existing provisions in the Asylum Appeals (Procedure) Rules 1996. As in those rules it will be made clear that the decision to grant leave will be able to be made by a single member of the commission. This would be the chairman or the other member specified in Schedule 1 to the Bill.
The amendment to Schedule 2 to the Bill is entirely technical. It will ensure that decisions taken by the Secretary of State will not be implemented while there is an appeal to the Court of Appeal pending.
I believe that these amendments represent an improvement to the Bill.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 1.--(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
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