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Lord Ezra: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for having written to explain the reasons for the amendments. I find them acceptable.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 2 [Contracts to which Act applies]:
Lord Clinton-Davis moved Amendment No. 2:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 2, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 4, 8, 9, 11, 14, 18, 19 and 20. These are drafting amendments which simply tidy up the Bill. None is substantial. The Government have chosen to lay them now so that the Bill is in as good a shape as possible before it enters the other place. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Clinton-Davis moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 1, line 22, leave out first ("or") and insert ("of goods, a contract for the").
Leave out Clause 3 and insert the following new clause--
(" .--(1) A debt created by virtue of an obligation under a contract to which this Act applies to pay the whole or any part of the contract price is a "qualifying debt" for the purposes of this Act, unless (when created) the whole of the debt is prevented from carrying statutory interest by this section.
(2) A debt does not carry statutory interest if or to the extent that it consists of a sum to which a right to interest or to charge interest applies by virtue of any enactment (other than section 1 of this Act).
This subsection does not prevent a sum from carrying statutory interest by reason of the fact that a court, arbitrator or arbiter would, apart from this Act, have power to award interest on it.
(3) A debt does not carry (and shall be treated as never having carried) statutory interest if or to the extent that a right to demand interest on it, which exists by virtue of any rule of law, is exercised.
(4) A debt does not carry statutory interest if or to the extent that it is of a description specified in an order made by the Secretary of State.
(5) Such an order may specify a description of debt by reference to any feature of the debt (including the parties or any other feature of the contract by which it is created).").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 4 [Period for which statutory interest runs]:
Lord Haskel moved Amendments Nos. 4 to 8:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 5 [Rate of statutory interest]:
Lord Haskel moved Amendment No. 9:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 6 [Remission of statutory interest]:
Lord Haskel moved Amendment No. 10:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 7 [Purpose of Part II]:
Lord Haskel moved Amendment No. 11:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 8 [Circumstances where statutory interest may be ousted or varied]:
Lord Haskel moved Amendments Nos. 12 to 18:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 9 [Meaning of "substantial remedy"]:
Lord Haskel moved Amendment No. 19:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 10 [Interpretation of Part II]:
Lord Haskel moved Amendments Nos. 20 to 22:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.--(Lord Clinton-Davis.)
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
The Minister of State, Department for Education and Employment (Baroness Blackstone): My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.
Moved, That the Bill be further considered on Report.--(Baroness Blackstone.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 1 [The General Teaching Council]:
Lord Northbourne moved No. 3A:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 3A was ably moved in Committee in my absence by the noble Baroness, Lady Young. Together with other amendments in the group, it relates to the question of whose interests should be reflected in the membership of the general teaching council. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that we are not talking about who should be represented on the council, but whose interests should be reflected on it.
I ask myself what the word "interest" means in this case. I assume that it means the same as in the phrase "vested interest" or the interest which your Lordships are obliged to disclose in your Lordships' House. If that is what "interest" means, it seems to me that the category of persons who par excellence has the greatest interest in the success of the GTC is the pupils.
It is stating the obvious to say that if teachers are less good than they should be the pupils suffer. They suffer currently from boredom and in later life from unemployment. In that case, pupils are the customers and their interests should be taken into account. The Bill directs the Secretary of State to have,
There is then a reference to the general public, but there is no focused reference to the customers. If the Bill stands as it is there is a guarantee that the interests of providers will be reflected in the composition of the council, but there is none in respect of consumers.
I do not suggest that pupils should be represented on the council and should stand for election or otherwise. I suggest only that the Secretary of State should be directed by the Bill to ensure that there are plenty of voices on the council to reflect the interests of pupils. I do not intend to object to the Minister's Amendment No. 6 because I am confident and fully accept that most teachers will want to reflect the interests of pupils even ahead of their own interests. But some will not. Therefore, I urge the Government to accept Amendment No. 3A so that the Secretary of State will be clearly directed by the Bill to have regard to the importance of appointing members to the GTC, whether they be
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, in speaking to this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 5, 5A, 6, 7, 79 and 80.
I listened carefully to the points raised in Committee about the need to provide further detail on the face of the Bill about the composition of the general teaching council. The council must bring together and reflect the interests of all those with a stake in ensuring high standards in teaching--parents, employers, higher education and the wider public as well as teachers. It must be able to speak with authority on behalf of the profession and command the respect of the public.
We will be consulting on the composition of the council to ensure that we have a clear understanding of the views of all those in the system so that we can take forward the establishment of the council on a firm and agreed basis. We do not want to close off options for that consultation. However, equally, we accept the case for offering the clearest possible statement of our intentions at this stage, and for allowing an early opportunity for further discussion on the proposed detail.
I shall speak first to Amendments Nos. 79 and 80. I have reflected on the points made during our previous debate. After careful consideration, I agree that both Houses should have an opportunity to debate the regulations governing the composition of the council. I am persuaded that we should take the opportunity to ensure that the Government's proposals have the support of both Houses. I have therefore brought forward Amendment No. 79 which will require the regulations on the composition of the council to be subject to the approval of each House of Parliament on the first occasion they are made. That will ensure that we are able to have a full debate taking into account the results of our consultation before the final arrangements are put in place.
I do not, however, see a need for regulations made thereafter to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Any subsequent revisions are likely to be of a minor or technical nature. I would not wish valuable parliamentary time to be used to examine minor changes. I have, however, brought forward Amendment No. 80 which will require the Secretary of State to consult the council, once established, before making regulations under any of the powers in this chapter of the Bill.
Let me take the opportunity to clarify a misunderstanding which arose in Committee. I am advised that the reference to the "constitution" of the council in Clause 1(3) should be taken to refer to the membership of the council. The regulation-making power in Clause 1(3) will probably be used in conjunction with that in paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 which governs the election or appointment of council members. We envisage that the membership will be established through a combination of direct teacher
I turn now to Amendment No. 6. During our previous debate there was strong support in all parts of your Lordships' House for us to look again at the representation of serving teachers on the council. This will be the professional body for teachers and it must speak with authority on behalf of the teaching profession. But it must also reflect the input of those from outside the profession who share a common interest in securing high professional standards for teachers. The council's work will also benefit if the council includes some members who can bring valuable experience and fresh perspectives from other walks of life.
I considered the points raised and tabled Amendment No. 6 which requires that at least half the membership of the council should be serving and qualified teachers. That reflects the wording of the amendments moved in Committee by the noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady Maddock. However, since tabling the amendment, I have had the opportunity to reflect further on Amendment No. 4, which we shall consider later, which provides that teachers would form a majority of the council. There may not be a great deal of practical difference between "at least half" and "a majority", but I recognise an important difference of emphasis. I am therefore happy to accept in principle that serving, qualified teachers should form a majority on the council. That clearly signals our intention that serving teachers will be the major force on the council properly balanced by other interests within the educational world and "lay" members to represent the wider public.
I believe it is right, however, that the teachers on the council should be qualified teachers with recent experience of teaching. The council will benefit from their experience of teaching in the classroom and they will be able to command the respect of their colleagues. With your Lordships' leave, I shall therefore not proceed with Amendment No. 6 and will return to the House at Third Reading with an appropriate amendment which sets out that teachers should form a majority of the council but that those teachers should be serving and qualified teachers. Amendment No. 4 does not provide for that so I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Tope, will be content with my proposed approach and will be prepared to withdraw his amendment too.
I move on to Amendment No. 5, which provides for the Secretary of State to have regard to the desirability of the council's membership reflecting the interests of commerce and industry and those with special educational needs. There was, I think, strong support for these interests being included when we debated these issues earlier and I am happy to reflect the mood of the House in bringing forward this amendment.
On Amendment No. 5A, however, I agree that it is important that the interests of the Churches who provide training for teachers should be represented on the council. I know that they are committed to ensuring high standards among the teaching profession and that they would provide a valuable contribution and perspective
Subsection (4) of Clause 1 lists employers of teachers and providers of teacher training as interests to which the Secretary of State must have regard when making regulations on the composition of the council. Denominational schools and teacher training institutions employ and train large numbers of our teachers. The Secretary of State will certainly have regard to representation on the council of the Churches in these various guises.
Having heard the debate today, however, I am willing to commit the Government to consult on the composition of the council on the basis that we are committed to ensuring that the interests of the Churches are represented on the council and that we wish to invite views on how this can best be achieved. There might be several ways. One would be for the Churches, who have substantial numbers of denominational schools and teacher training institutions, to make nominations to the council. Another might be for the Secretary of State to make appropriate appointments to the council. There could be other ways. We shall be interested to see what results from the consultation. But I am anxious not to tie our hands at this stage as to precisely how we can best ensure that the range of Church interests are properly reflected in the composition of the council. I hope that what I have said will be welcome to the noble Baroness and she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Turning to Amendment No. 3A, I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, that the council must always have the needs of pupils and parents foremost in its mind. Putting the consumer first is the essence of professionalism. I agree that it is important for consumers of education to be represented on the council. They will bring an important perspective to the work of the council and ensure that the council is focused ultimately on promoting high standards of teaching and learning in the interests of the wider public. I am not sure how practical it would be for the pupils themselves to be represented on the council. I would be interested to hear the ideas of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, on how that might be done and we can certainly invite views in our consultation document. But I agree that it is essential for the voice of parents to be represented in some way on the council. Subsection (4) of Clause 1 requires the Secretary of State to have regard to the desirability of the general public being represented on the council. It has always been our intention that this should allow for parents as well as other interests to be represented.
We intend to consult on the basis that the interests of parents must be represented on the council and invite views on how that might best be achieved. There may be several ways to do this, so, again, I would not like to close off any options before we have had a response to the consultation exercise. It may be possible to consider nominations by national bodies, such as the National Council of Parent Teacher Associations. It may also be possible to look at ways of recognising the valuable contribution that parents make as governors of schools,
The House has already accepted the Government's aim at Committee stage which set out that the council must perform its functions in the interests of the public. The council must not be a talking shop for teachers. It must be outward looking and have the right balance of interests to ensure that it does not lose that focus. I believe, above all, that that should be our intention and that the current drafting of Clause 1, as amended, secures that aim. In the light of that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, will not wish to press his amendment.
Amendment No. 7 is a technical amendment to paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 and relates to the regulations which will make provision for the methods of appointment or election of members of the council and the chairman of the council. As I said earlier, this power is likely to be used in conjunction with that in Clause 1(3) in establishing the composition of the council. The paragraph currently provides that the regulations may enable the council to make those arrangements. We envisage that the regulations might set a broad framework, within which the GTC could fill in the detail.
The amendment is necessary to enable the Secretary of State to make such arrangements in the first instance before the GTC is established. That will avoid the need for such matters to be prescribed in excessive detail in the regulations themselves. It would, for example, allow for an electoral scheme to be drawn up to cover the first teacher elections to the council. I understand that other professional bodies draw up such schemes to govern their elections, and that they go into the sort of detail that would not be appropriate in a statutory instrument. I must emphasise that this amendment only affects those arrangements which will need to be made in order to elect or appoint the initial council membership. Thereafter, the GTC can be empowered to make its own arrangements and set them out as council rules.
Page 2, line 31, at beginning insert--
("( ) Statutory interest runs in relation to a qualifying debt in accordance with this section (unless section 6 applies).").
Page 2, line 31, leave out ("on a qualifying debt").
Page 2, line 32, after ("day") insert ("for the debt,").
Page 3, line 10, leave out ("on a debt").
Page 3, line 12, leave out from first ("payment"") to end of line 14 and insert ("has the same meaning as in section 11").
Transpose Clause 5 to after Clause 6.
Page 3, line 28, leave out ("on") and insert ("in relation to").
Page 4, line 1, leave out from ("apply") to end of line 2 and insert ("when a qualifying debt created by the contract (in this Part referred to as "the debt") is not paid.").
Page 4, line 8, leave out ("on") and insert ("in relation to").
Page 4, line 9, at end insert ("of the debt").
Page 4, line 11, leave out ("on") and insert ("by").
Page 4, line 13, after ("interest") insert ("in relation to the debt").
Page 4, line 17, at end insert ("for late payment of the debt").
Page 4, line 20, at end insert ("for late payment of the debt").
Page 4, line 21, leave out second ("the").
Page 4, leave out line 31 and insert ("that would otherwise apply in relation to the debt.").
Page 5, line 4, leave out ("for late payment").
Page 5, line 14, leave out ("a qualifying") and insert ("the").
Page 5, line 16, at end insert--
("(3) In this Part a reference to late payment of the debt is a reference to late payment of the sum due when the debt is created (excluding any part of that sum which is prevented from carrying statutory interest by section 3).").
3.35 p.m.
Page 2, line 7, at end insert--
("( ) pupils in schools,
( ) the parents of pupils in schools,").
"regard to the desirability of the Council's membership reflecting the interests of ... teachers, employers of teachers, providers of teacher-training".
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