Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask the Minister a question in the light of her final comment. The amendment addresses the principle of additionality as opposed to voting money. If, as the Government have said, they intend that the money will go into universities and that they will benefit from it, there is no financial consequence in simply establishing the principle that this should be regarded as additionality, which is entirely in line with what the Government are claiming.

Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, the amendments would tie the higher education funding council in many ways which would be undesirable. That would lead to unfairness in funding and would mean that some universities which have many expensive courses would suffer as against those with cheaper ones.

I have tried to say as clearly as I can that we are committed to trying to find additional funding for universities. We recognise the financial crisis in which they have been left; but the amendment would commit the Government in ways which would have an undesirable effect on universities. Furthermore, they are also de facto public expenditure commitments.

Lord Tope: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, for clarifying that point. I accept that the Minister has gone as far as she is able. As I said a moment ago, that is not far enough, and I wish to test the opinion of the House.

8.35 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 50) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 56; Not-Contents, 87.

Division No. 6


Addington, L.
Beloff, L.
Belstead, L.
Biddulph, L.
Blatch, B.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Butterfield, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Cross, V.
Dholakia, L.
Falkland, V.
Fookes, B.
Hampton, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henley, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lyell, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Marlesford, L.
Newby, L.
Northbrook, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renton, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E. [Teller.]
Seccombe, B.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stockton, E.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L. [Teller.]
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Wise, L.
Young, B.


Acton, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fitt, L.
Gallacher, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howell, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kilbracken, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Levy, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mallalieu, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Southwell, Bp.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

10 Mar 1998 : Column 189

8.43 p.m.

Clause 25 [Orders and regulations]:

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendment No. 51:

Page 25, line 24, leave out ("General Teaching").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 52:

Page 25, line 27, leave out second ("made").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, after the controversy and excitement of the evening, I am glad to read the first two lines of my brief, which say:

    "These 2 amendments have no practical effect whatsoever".

10 Mar 1998 : Column 190

On Report, I moved amendments to ensure that the first set of regulations to be made on both the composition of the GTC and on the student support arrangements were subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Those amendments were widely welcomed. Amendments Nos. 52 and 53 merely tidy up the drafting of Clause 25 to reflect the wishes of the parliamentary draftsman to produce a Bill without otiose material in it. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 53 and 54:

Page 25, line 32, leave out second ("made").
Page 26, line 5, leave out ("General Teaching").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 26 [General interpretation]:

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendment No. 55:

Page 26, line 9, at end insert--
(""the Council" means the body corporate referred to in section 1(1);").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 29 [Short title, commencement and extent]:

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendment No. 56:

Page 26, line 40, at end insert--
("section (Duty to have regard to needs of disabled persons),").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 2 [Minor and consequential amendments]:

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendments Nos. 57 to 59:

Page 31, line 41, at end insert ("for England").
Page 32, line 5, at end insert ("for England").
Page 32, line 10, after ("Council") insert ("for England").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

An amendment (privilege) made.

8.47 p.m.

Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. It is customary at this stage for the Minister in charge of a Bill to say a few words of thanks. Although the Bill is relatively short in length, it has certainly not been short on controversy. That has been demonstrated by the lively and extensive debates which we have had on it.

This is the third Bill which I have taken through as a Minister and it has been an experience that I certainly shall not forget. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on the Bill. From the Front Bench, my noble friend Lord Whitty has made a particularly large contribution. He has had to master the briefs for this Bill alongside all his other work in the House and I thank him warmly for that. I look forward to his support when the School Standards and Framework Bill reaches us from another place. I am grateful also to my noble friend Lord Sewel. The knowledge and extensive experience that he gained before he became a Minister has informed our discussions on the Bill's impact north of the Border.

Finally, I thank my noble friend Lord Carter and his colleagues in the Whips' Office, who have offered a great deal of support as the Bill has progressed.

10 Mar 1998 : Column 191

I turn now to the Opposition Front Benches. I must thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch. She has been a formidable opponent and has brought us much of her knowledge as a former education Minister. She has secured a victory against me but, as she knows, we shall seek to overturn that when the Bill reaches another place. However, I have very much enjoyed our encounters and I look forward to more of those when the schools Bill reaches us. The noble Lords, Lord Pilkington and Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, have also made very valuable contributions.

I want to thank also the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock. They have made many constructive interventions on all aspects of the Bill. I am pleased that we have been able to take on board at least some of their suggestions. I am grateful also to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Lords, Lord Wallace and Lord Addington, for their contributions. We have all been struck by the noble Earl's use of metaphor and his references to classical mythology.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon, as ever, courteously represented the interest of the Church. My noble friend Lord Sewel and I both want to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy. She has used her formidable knowledge of education in Scotland to excellent effect throughout the Bill's passage.

On the teaching aspects of the Bill, we have had the benefit of the wisdom of many Members of this House. I am most grateful for the contributions of the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin of Bewdley, the noble Lords, Lord Quirk, Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Walton of Detchant, and the noble Baroness, Lady Young.

On the higher education issues, this House has, as so often, shown the unparalleled experience that it can bring to bear in scrutinising legislation. In particular, I believe that I can say that we are all grateful for the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, Lord Baker of Dorking, Lord Beloff and Lord Walton of Detchant, the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Young, Lady Perry and Lady Park.

I want to thank also my noble friends on this side of the House who have provided both support and friendly and constructive criticism, sometimes at the same time. In particular, I wish to thank my noble friends Lord Desai, Lord Davies of Oldham, Lord Peston, Lady Lockwood, Lady David and Lady Dean.

I am sorry that despite all my arguments, my noble friend Lord Glenamara remains unable to support our proposals. I hope that perhaps eventually he will feel able to accept that the provisions in the Bill are working both in raising standards of the teaching profession and in providing continued expansion and quality in our universities.

I must thank also my private office, which, along with the Bill team and my other officials, has worked very hard to keep the show on the road both here and in the department. I want to thank parliamentary counsel for drafting the Bill and for providing an excellent service during its passage through the House.

10 Mar 1998 : Column 192

Finally, I thank the doorkeepers and all the staff of the House. As ever, they have been extremely courteous, patient and helpful. I look forward with interest to watching the progress of the Bill through another place and considering it again when it returns later in the year. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.--(Baroness Blackstone.)

Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page