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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that intervention. I am sure that the noble Viscount had that in mind in part, although I suspect that he had concerns about other intellectual property rights apart from copyright.
The noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, is absolutely right. There is no problem about the copyright of software, for the reasons I indicated, nor about any other legal right apart from trade secrets. That is specifically dealt with in the context of the Act. I am sorry that it was such a lengthy explanation. I hope that it gives the noble Viscount some comfort, in the light of which he will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, perhaps I can ask for clarification. Can the Minister say whether there is any other statute of which he is aware, where "intellectual property" is used as a defined term of art?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am not aware of such a statute, though there may be one. Perhaps I can make inquiries and write to the noble Lord if I find a statute where that phrase is used.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, if the term "intellectual property" were to go on the face of the Bill, it could create a precedent.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, it may well do. I am obliged to the noble Lord for raising the point.
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord will be aware that we are bound by our signature to the Berne Convention and to WIPO as well, which I imagine feed into statutory legislation somehow, though I do not know precisely how.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, that is correct. I believe I had concluded my remarks.
Viscount Astor: My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord said and as I remarked earlier, I moved this amendment at Committee stage. I took note of what the noble and learned Lord said then, which is the reason I came back to it. There is an anxiety about what is and what is not a "trade secret" and how intellectual property and copyright fall under it. I shall certainly study carefully what the noble and learned Lord said in his response and consider whether this is an area to which we will need to return on Third Reading.
The Earl of Northesk: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down and with apologies for returning to the subject of credit reference agencies, perhaps I can say that I am grateful for his generous offer. However, in conceding that I raised one or two legitimate concerns, I am bound to ask whether the amendments to which I spoke, if they are accepted today, are amendable subsequently in a way which will address my concerns. Does the noble and learned Lord have any suggestion as to how, procedurally, he may seek to resolve that difficulty?
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux): My Lords, perhaps your Lordships will permit me to put the House in order. We will move on from Amendment No. 9 to Amendment No. 10, at which time the noble and learned Lord will be able to speak again. The Question is that Amendment No. 9 be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say "Content"; to the contrary "Not-Content". The Contents have it.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 7 [Right of access to personal data]:
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 10:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have formally spoken to this amendment. The standing order rules state that,
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the relevant words seem to me to be:
One can simply read this debate and see where we stand in relation to Third Reading. Speaking for myself, I should have thought that, procedurally, there is no bar.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, with the leave of the House, does the noble and learned Lord therefore agree with me that these subjects are not being fully debated now?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the amendments were tabled on Thursday of last week and the noble Earl, Lord Northesk, has raised certain points that need further discussion. If those cannot be resolved, speaking for myself--though it is not a matter for me, it is a matter for the House--there could then be a proper debate on those issues that have not been fully aired during the course of this debate. At the moment, and speaking from a position of immense lack of experience, it does not seem to me that it gives rise to procedural difficulties, because the detail of what the noble Earl, Lord Northesk, has said has not been fully debated today.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, nothing has been decided--I have not been here the whole time but I am interested in this matter--and neither has anything been fully debated. So how, procedurally, is the House put in balk for Third Reading? Nothing has been decided except a sensible meeting to seek to decide.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I entirely understand what has been said. In formal terms, the amendments will go though at this stage and then we will come back to them at Third Reading, when there can be, as I understand it, such necessary full debate on those matters not fully ventilated at this stage.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendments Nos. 11 to 14:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have already spoken to these amendments. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 8 [Provisions supplementary to section 7]:
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 16:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made by my honourable friend the Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:
"The circumstances of this case are now the subject of a murder investigation and I must choose my words with care. David Oliver Keys was found dead in his cell in C wing of H Block 6 at approximately 8.30 a.m. on Sunday 15th March 1998 during the routine morning cell check. The body was found hanging with a ligature around the neck and both wrists slashed. He was pronounced dead at 9.05 a.m. The cause of death seemed to be suicide. The RUC and the coroner's office were notified, and the prisoners were moved out of C wing. During the course of the day the police and a pathologist visited the scene. Both expressed some concern that the cause of death might not be suicide. At 1700 hours the body was removed for a post mortem, the results of which led the RUC to launch a murder inquiry yesterday evening.
"Following his arrest and questioning by the RUC, Mr. Keys was remanded in custody on 11th March 1998 and was committed to Her Majesty's prison Maghaberry. He asked for, and was given, a form to complete seeking a transfer to the wings of HMP Maze occupied by the Loyalist Volunteer Force. This form is intended to ensure that the applicant is quite clear about the faction with which he wishes to be housed and about the nature of the regime which operates in Her Majesty's prison the Maze. Mr. Keys signed and dated this form on 11th March. In accordance with normal practice, the LVF prisoners were asked to confirm that Mr. Keys was acceptable to them. They said he was. No information was available to the prison service which suggested that
"The Maze Prison contains more than 400 convicted terrorists and a further 100 or so remanded in custody in connection with scheduled offences. Some 150 prisoners have been convicted of murder or attempted murder. They are segregated according to faction, and two of the five factions have not declared ceasefires. The factions have considerable political and paramilitary influence, and they are supervised by locally recruited staff. Any one of these factors would, by itself, constitute a challenge to security and control. Combined, they present the Northern Ireland Prison Service with a unique set of circumstances not replicated elsewhere.
"Over the past year there have been a series of incidents which have rightly given rise to concern about the effectiveness of the establishment. Each has been made the subject of an inquiry, and substantial improvements in security have been made, under the guidance of a new managerial team.
"The escape and the murder of a prisoner in December 1997 are the subject of both police investigations and an inquiry by Martin Narey of Her Majesty's Prison Service. He is independent of the Northern Ireland Prison Service. I have received his report and it will be made public shortly. In addition, the Secretary of State has asked Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons, Sir David Ramsbotham, to carry out a full inspection of the prison. This will begin next Monday, and his report will be published.
"In the light of all these investigations, it would not be appropriate for me to say more today about the nature and performance of Her Majesty's prison the Maze. I can assure honourable Members, however, that Ministers will be treating the conclusions and recommendations with the utmost seriousness."
Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. She will understand, I am sure, the very serious concern that this latest incident has aroused in this House and indeed throughout the country. In the past week we have seen the release of the terrorist, Miss McAliskey, we have seen Sinn Fein allowed back into the peace talks, Gerry Adams entertained in Downing Street after two IRA murders and now we have the murder of Mr. David Keys by fellow prisoners. It was carried out in a way that implies much forward planning and a substantial time in its perpetration, and it follows close on the heels of the shooting of the convicted terrorist, Billy Wright, last December.
After Mr. Wright's murder, the prisons Minister in another place, Mr. Ingram, gave an assurance that security at the Maze would be tightened up and new measures put in place to ensure that such incidents could not happen again. But that does not seem to be the case. I do not expect the noble Baroness to go into the details of security measures at the Maze, but can she inform
Lord Holme of Cheltenham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for making the Statement to this House which has been made in another place. I am sure that the House will acknowledge that it is a very serious situation in the Maze Prison. I do not want to cast my net as wide as the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, and make it part of a pattern because, generally, the prospects for a peaceful settlement in Northern Ireland are brighter than they have been for a long time.
However, when one looks at the situation in the Maze and the Statement that we have been given, I am sure that the Government will accept that we have now had a series of incidents over the past 10 months which must raise great doubts about the viability of the prison as a whole. We had an attempted IRA mass escape last May; there was the escape of an IRA double murderer dressed as a woman, last December; more recently, there was the murder of Billy Wright of the Loyalist Volunteer Force by the INLA, and now we have the apparent murder of a prisoner in his cell. Each of these incidents is now matched by its own investigation or inquiry. Were it not so serious, I might be inclined to say that at this rate there will be more inquiries about the Maze Prison than prisoners there.
We have got to the point where the Government, in contemplating what to do, have to ask themselves some serious questions about the prison. Perhaps I may ask them. First, the Statement refers to factional segregation. Are the Government satisfied with the underlying arrangements and rules at the Maze Prison which seem to have grown from the point when they were originally instituted by the Conservative government to where factional segregation has become factional control, where the prisoners, within those factions, are effectively guarding themselves? Secondly, when will the outgoing governor, who, I know, is staying on temporarily, be replaced? This is surely the time when there is a need for a new appointment and a firm hand in the Maze Prison.
Finally, I had intended to ask the Government at this point for a fully independent inquiry, but I believe the fact that Sir David Ramsbotham has been asked to look at the prison as a whole will reassure Members of this House, given his very fine, independent record. However, what is his remit? The Statement simply says that he is to carry out a full inspection of the prison. No doubt, that is what inspectors of prisons do. We must now be reassured that his remit is wide enough to include the way in which the system at the Maze Prison operates as a whole. I do not believe that this is the time for excitable calls for resignations because I do not believe that that helps a great deal. But the Government
Page 5, line 39, leave out ("supplying") and insert ("communicating").
"The principal purposes of amendments on Third Reading are to clarify any remaining uncertainties, to improve the drafting and to enable the Government to fulfil undertakings given at earlier stages of the bill. It is undesirable that an issue which has been fully debated and decided upon at a previous stage of a bill should be re-opened by an amendment on Third Reading".
I should have thought that that is more than enough to deal with the procedural difficulties.
16 Mar 1998 : Column 486
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am grateful for that clarification. Nonetheless, should a Member of your Lordships' House wish to remove part or all of one of the amendments proposed by the noble and learned Lord, he could not do so.
"It is undesirable that an issue which has been fully debated and decided upon at a previous stage of a bill should be re-opened by an amendment on Third Reading".
Page 5, line 40, leave out ("supplied") and insert ("communicated").
Page 6, line 4, at end insert--
("(6A) An individual making a request under this section to a credit reference agency may specify that his request is limited to personal data consisting of information as to his financial standing.").
Page 6, line 12, at end insert--
(""credit reference agency" has the same meaning as in the Consumer Credit Act 1974;").
Page 6, line 24, leave out from ("has") to end of line 29 and insert ("both the required fee and the information referred to in subsection (3)").
Page 7, line 24, leave out subsection (8).
4.42 p.m.
"Madam Speaker, may I say at the outset how much I regret the death of Mr. David Keys in the Maze Prison during the weekend. The Northern Ireland Prison Service owes a duty of care to all prisoners, regardless of what they have done or may have done, and any death in custody is a matter of deep distress to prison staff.
16 Mar 1998 : Column 488Mr. Keys was in any way at risk from this faction. Accordingly, he transferred to the LVF wings of Her Majesty's prison the Maze on 11th March.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
4.48 p.m.
4.50 p.m.
4.54 p.m.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I agree with both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord about the seriousness of the situation. Following the events which have been referred to; namely, the escape by Averill and the death of Billy Wright, the Government have imposed additional security measures. Additional security modifications and improvements will be considered in the light of the Narey Report. It is anticipated that it will be published shortly.
The murder of Mr. Keys occurred in the segregated LVF block where no other paramilitary prisoners were located. Therefore, the issue of factional segregation appears to be satisfactory. I shall write to the noble Lord with details as to when it is proposed to replace the current governor at the end of his term of office. The Narey Report is expected soon. I welcome the recognition of the importance of receiving that report and considering it. The Government should take that into account.
Factional segregation is not entirely factional control. The alternative needs to be very carefully considered even given the possible serious consequences for prisoners and prison staff were the segregation system to be ended. We are presently considering the recruitment of a replacement governor, but obviously the exact date is not known. I hope that I have answered the questions raised, but if not, I can assure noble Lords that I shall read Hansard carefully and write to them as a matter of urgency.
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