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Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 81A:
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment
No. 81A, and in doing so I need also to refer to the large
batch of amendments grouped with it. For the record,
these are Nos. 83A, 83B, 85A, 90A, 90B, 90C, 90D,
90F, 90G, 91B, 91C, 114A, 114B, 122A, 129A, 145A,
156A, 206A, 206B, 256B, 257C, 257E, 257G, 257J,
257L, 257N, 257P, 259A.
Following that, I have seven pages of notes
explaining what each of the amendments does.
However, I would hope that at this hour your Lordships
will accept my assurance that all are technical and
consequential, intended to clarify the Bill's substantive
provisions relating to the new school categories. None
of the amendments makes any additional substantive
changes not already dealt with by other amendments.
I am of course prepared to answer any questions on any
of the amendments to the best of my ability, but I hope
that the Committee will accept that they are technical
and so allow us to proceed to the rather more substantial
amendments which are to follow.
Baroness Blatch: I do not rise to ask for the seven
pages of explanation regarding these amendments, but
I do ask this. Consequential on what? And in relation
to what?
Lord Whitty: Consequential on the definition of the
new schools framework, with definitions of the new
foundation schools. They also relate to timing and
provisions on property and status.
Lord Lucas: I, on the other hand, would like to ask
the noble Lord a few questions. It may be convenient
if I do so amendment by amendment. I start with
No. 145A. My question is: like what? As I am sure the
noble Lord realises, the amendment introduces
additional words, in this case "rights and liabilities".
Therefore I ask: like what?
Lord Whitty: The whole amendment deals with
property transfers and makes it clear that rights and
liabilities which are attached to properties will transfer
with such properties. That is what Amendments
Nos. 145A and 90C are about.
Lord Lucas: If the noble Lord would prefer to write
to me I will allow him to, but I should like to know: like
Perhaps we can move on to the next one. I very much
welcome his removing the wording in Amendment
No. 114A, which was extremely obscure. I should also
very much like to understand Amendment No. 206A and
what exactly has been done there. It appears that some
tax or rating concession has been removed from schools,
but the noble Lord will doubtless be able to inform me
better.
Lord Whitty: I regret to say that the noble Lord will
have to rely on a letter from me because I cannot
immediately find the necessary information among my
notes. I can inform him about Amendment No. 206B,
but I will write to him about No. 206A.
Baroness Blatch: This is actually a rather serious
point. I accepted what the noble Lord said at the
beginning, that these are minor technical amendments
and entirely consequential, but if one reads subsection
(2), which is to disappear from the Bill, it says that:
and so on. These provisions are more than merely technical,
minor and inconsequential. Therefore, I wonder whether the
noble Lord will agree--because we do not want to hold up
the progress of the Committee--to write with an explanation
to my noble friend and have the letter copied to other noble
Lords, and we will deal with these amendments at the next
stage and, it is to be hoped, without any difficulty.
Lord Whitty: I am happy to confirm that I will write
to the noble Lord. The bulk of these amendments are
fairly straightforward. I have now found my briefing on
Amendment No. 206A in reply to the noble Lord,
Lord Lucas. That relates to the issues arising from
discussions with the charity commissioners. I will put
all this in writing to the noble Lord, with a copy to the
noble Baroness.
Lord Lucas: If I have a full explanation of all the
amendments in this group I shall be content. But there
are certainly others on which I had questions.
The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, will remember the
trouble he gave me in the past on technical amendments.
It is a lesson I learnt well at his hands. I hope that the
noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will be better prepared--as
I learnt to be--on a future occasion.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I doubt whether I did
that at 2.30 in the morning.
Baroness Blatch: On more than one occasion when
I was a Minister noble Lords opposite did that at 2.30 in
the morning.
To put the record straight, I read from page 59, not
page 57. The section I ought to have read was that
dealing with mandatory and discretionary rate relief, a
point raised by my noble friend.
If the noble Lord was not prepared to write ahead of
our voting on these amendments, then we should feel it
necessary to vote against them tonight.
Lord Whitty: The only amendment moved is
Amendment No. 81A dealing with the question of the
appointed date, simply making the difference between
that referred to in Clause 20 and the same expression
used in Schedule 31 dealing with transitional provisions.
It just makes the point that these are different appointed
days. That is the amendment that I have moved. The
other amendments are within this grouping. No doubt if
my letter does not satisfy the noble Baroness or any
other noble Lord in the interim, they will return to these
matters on a subsequent Committee day.
Baroness Blatch: Am I mistaken? I understand that
we are going as far as Amendment No. 96, which means
that Amendments Nos. 81A, 83A, 83B, 85A, 90A, 90B,
90C, 90D, 90F, 90G, 91B and 91C would be dealt with
this evening.
Lord Whitty: My recollection is that none of those
amendments was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas.
I will move them at the appropriate point if the noble
Baroness wishes to come back on them. The
amendments referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas,
were beyond Amendment No. 96.
Baroness Blatch: The noble Lord is missing the point
that we are making. Because my noble friend has raised
at least a couple of points that do not fit the description
of minor, technical and no more than consequential
amendments, they raise issues for debate, of which rate
relief is one, and there may well be others. We took it
as read that that was of no consequence. We believe
now that it possibly is of some consequence. The noble
Lord has promised to write to those of us on this side
of the House, including those on the Liberal Democrat
Benches, so that we understand what these amendments
are about. I am sure that the noble Lord does not want
to spend all night reading out these matters. It would be
a very minor matter, and I suspect that these
amendments will be passed when we have all received
a proper explanation. But perhaps he will let us have
Lord Whitty: I do not know what the noble Baroness
means by her reference to the next stage of the Bill.
I will certainly provide subsequently tonight an
explanation of all the amendments which are within this
group. It will then be up to noble Lords as to what they
do at a subsequent stage of the Bill.
Baroness Blatch: Once we agree tonight, there is no
subsequent stage for these amendments. If amendments
up to Amendment No. 91C are dealt with and are
accepted, then they will be part of the Bill. I am simply
saying that it would be helpful to have the letter of
explanation and then deal with the voting at the next
stage of the Bill. Nothing is going to happen in relation
to these amendments between now and the next stage of
the Bill. They will be dealt with relatively quickly
because we will have had a detailed explanation from
the Minister.
Lord Whitty: We may proceed as far as
Amendment No. 96 tonight. I have already moved
Amendment No. 81A and if the noble Baroness
objects to any subsequent amendments being moved,
she can do so at that point. Either she can return to
the issues at Report stage or I can do so. I do not
see the difficulty. I suspect that had I read out the
seven pages, we would still have the problem, but
I now wish I had read them out. Nevertheless, if we
proceed we will see which ones the noble Baroness
or any other noble Lord objects to.
Lord Monkswell: Perhaps I may help my noble
friend on the Front Bench. It seems to me that we
are talking about government amendments about
which the Opposition have some reservations. They
seek explanations for them, but the amendments have
been put down and debated. If they are moved and
agreed at this Committee stage, then if, following the
further explanation which the Government have said
they would provide to the Opposition, the Opposition
has further difficulty with the amendments, then
further amendments altering them could be put down
for Report stage. That would satisfy all parties.
It seems to me to be quite in order for the
Committee to agree to the government amendments at
this stage, with the opportunity for the House to
consider the Bill prior to Report stage. If the
Opposition or even the Government, following further
consideration, felt that other amendments should be
made, that could be done at Report stage.
Page 18, line 42, after ("day"") insert ("(except in Schedule 31)").
"The code may include guidelines setting out aims, objectives and
other matters in relation to the discharge of their functions under this
Chapter by local education authorities and such governing bodies.
It shall be the duty of...the bodies and persons mentioned in
subsection (1) when exercising functions under this Chapter,
and...any other person when exercising any function",
2.30 a.m.
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