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Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 92:
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment
No. 92 and speak also to Amendments Nos. 93 and 94.
In anticipation of the speeches of the noble Lord,
Lord Lucas, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop
of Ripon, I should like to speak also to Amendments
Nos. 95 and 96. Amendments Nos. 92, 93 and 94 are
Amendment No. 95 in the name of the noble Lord,
Lord Lucas, does not take account of the grant payment
system and therefore is defective. In practice, payment
and acceptance happen simultaneously because grant is
paid direct to school governors' bank accounts by the
Bank Automated Clearing Service.
I understand that the noble Lord seeks to protect
voluntary aided school governors by offering them an
opportunity to consider the grant conditions before
accepting payments. I reassure him that we recognise
the implications of the grant condition systems for
school governors. We shall ensure that, where a
condition of grant is to be applied, the governors will
fully understand and can comply with the requirements
being stipulated before any building work starts and
grant is paid. In those circumstances, I hope that when
the noble Lord comes to speak to his amendment he will
understand the points that we make.
Amendment No. 96 in the name of the right reverend
Prelate the Bishop of Ripon is concerned with the grant
condition system. The grant condition system will
protect public fund investment in voluntary aided
schools. Where any voluntary aided school property is
bought or enhanced with public funds and ceases
subsequently to be used for a maintained school, we
want to ensure that if the assets are not recycled within
the maintained school system, public funds will be
appropriately compensated. The Churches have always
made it clear that they support that principle.
I understand the right reverend Prelate's reservations
about the Secretary of State's power to set a condition of
grant after the grant has been paid. Therefore, I propose to
bring forward an amendment on Report which I hope will
meet his concerns. We cannot agree to forfeit completely
the power to set a retrospective condition of grant.
However, we expect to use the power rarely and only
when it is reasonable to do so. The amendment I shall
table will modify the power so that it is exercisable only
where the Secretary of State is of the opinion that it is
reasonable to set a retrospective condition.
It may help if I give a couple of examples where we
judge that it will be reasonable to use the power; for
example, where, as a result of clerical oversight, the
grant condition is excluded from the formal grant letter
which sets out how much grant is to be paid. In such a
case, the governors will already be aware of the
intention to set a condition and it would be quite
reasonable, in our view, to correct the error and set the
formal condition after grant payment has commenced.
Another example may be that when grant is
requested, the school trusts appear to secure satisfactory
recycling and a condition is not set. However, it may be
that the terms of the trust deed have been misconstrued
or that the trusts are subsequently changed and
As I have said already, we expect such cases to arise
rarely. I do not consider that there is a real threat to
Church schools. I hope that the right reverend Prelate
will accept my proposal for an amendment on Report
and therefore will in due course see fit not to move his
amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon: After the
disappointment of Amendment No. 77, I am delighted
at the announcement by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh
of Haringey. As he said, the Churches have always
accepted the principle that if public money is used to
enhance trust assets and those trust assets in due course
may be realised, then any public money should be
returned. We have no difficulty with that.
The difficulty lay only in the power of the Secretary
of State to impose requirements at any time after the
making of a grant. Once again, we accept entirely
the situation which the noble Lord has described, that
there may, on occasions, be administrative oversights,
and in those circumstances we are prepared to accept
that a retrospective imposition would be right.
However, I am grateful to the noble Lord for the
assurance that he has given that that power will be rarely
used and for outlining the amendment which he will
bring forward on Report to make it clear that such a
retrospective condition would be imposed only when the
Secretary of State regarded it as reasonable to do so. In
those circumstances, I shall not move the amendment.
As Amendment No. 96 is the last amendment which
we are considering this evening, I should say that at
least one of your Lordships will be returning home
tonight with a lighter heart.
Perhaps I may also express my thanks to the noble
Baroness, Lady Blackstone, and her colleague, the
Minister for Schools, for their graciousness in receiving
representatives of the Churches to attempt to sort out
some of those difficulties. Also, I thank the officials of
her department for the way in which they worked so
closely with staff of the Board of Education, the
Catholic Education Service and the Free Church Federal
Council. I believe that those consultations have enabled
us to iron out most of the remaining difficulties that
we have in this Bill, and I am delighted by the
announcement made the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of
Haringey, this evening.
Lord Lucas: I should just like to thank the Minister
very much for what he said. Indeed, I am quite content.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments
Nos. 93 and 94:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 95 and 96 not moved.]
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I beg to move that the
House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion
agreed to.
Page 111, line 1, leave out ("new").
Page 111, line 14, leave out ("new").
Page 111, line 22, leave out ("new").
House adjourned at eleven minutes past three o'clock.
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