| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Maddock: Members of the Committee will know that that was an incredibly disappointing answer. I felt that the Minister was offering crumbs from the table to parish councils. I believe the Minister said that particularly in cases where the local education authority could not find governors itself it might consider asking the parish council. I found that particularly disappointing and surprising. It is not the kind of remark which the Minister normally makes.
She also indicated that we were slightly changing the amendments. I believe that my amendment improves the situation that we have now. We were not even asking for the status quo. If we asked for that, would the Minister look on the matter more favourably? Perhaps she will indicate whether that is so. The noble Baroness then tried to sell the provision to us by saying that it was going to be put into regulations, but we have been very kind and put it on the face of the Bill. I do not believe that anyone is going to be fooled, least of all the parish councils and minority authorities who lobbied us. I feel sure that we shall return to this matter again.
Baroness Byford: Perhaps I may return again to the Minister's response. I, too, am equally disappointed. It was hoped that the status quo would be allowed to exist. The Minister has moved some way to meet some of our requests. She spoke about co-option; possible openings; recommending the strongest terms; not imposing; and primary schools being satisfied at having someone from their LEA appointed rather than a local person being appointed.
I wish to ask the Minister two things. On looking at the amendments as they stand, obviously we have asked for a place in primary and secondary schools. If our amendment referred just to primary schools, would the Government reconsider? The last comment that the Minister made was about the size of the governing body. We are not changing the size of the governing body. All that we are changing--or rather, all that the Government are proposing to change--is that there may be certain nominees, with appointments being made by LEAs, with perhaps political rather than non-political appointees. The point of our amendment is to ensure that a parish council, which is duly elected and is the closest link to the school, should be allowed to continue to put forward its nominee for election as a governor as of right in primary schools.
Baroness Blackstone: Perhaps I may answer those two points briefly. It would be an improvement if the amendments related only to primary schools and did not go wider to include secondary schools, but I do not think that confining the provisions to primary schools would solve the Government's problems for the reasons I have explained, relating to an undertaking that has been given to grant-maintained schools.
The issue of the size of the governing body is not crucial to the argument. I mentioned it at the end because it is clearly important, as I am sure the noble Baroness will agree, that governing bodies should be of a sensible and reasonable size to get on with their business.
Baroness Byford: I thank the Minister for her response. Obviously, I am not happy about it and I expect that there will be great disappointment out there among our primary schools and parish councils. I should like to read Hansard--not tomorrow, but the day after--and to return to the issue at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 146E to 146N not moved.]
Baroness Blackstone moved Amendments Nos. 146R to 146V:
the governing body so determine, the instrument of government for the school shall provide for the governing body to include (in addition to the governors required by virtue of paragraph 14 and any required by virtue of sub-paragraph (1)) one co-opted governor nominated by the minor authority or (as the case may be) one of the minor authorities in question; and the governing body of any such school must decide whether or not to make a determination under this sub-paragraph.
Page 143, leave out line 20 and insert ("specified in or determined in accordance with regulations.").
Page 143, line 24, leave out ("by whom") and insert ("from amongst whose members").
Page 143, line 24, leave out ("may be made") and insert ("are to be sought").
Page 143, line 25, at end insert--
("(3) If, in the case of any voluntary aided school which--
(a) is a primary school, and
(b) serves an area for which there are one or more minor authorities,
(4) Where any such school serves an area for which there are two or more minor authorities, the relevant governors may, for the purposes of the appointment of any such co-opted governor, seek nominations from any one or more of those authorities as the governors think fit.
(5) In sub-paragraph (4) "the relevant governors" means those members of the school's governing body who are not co-opted governors.
15A.--(1) In the case of any maintained school (other than a voluntary aided school) which--
(a) is a primary school, and
(b) serves an area for which there are one or more minor authorities,
the relevant governors shall, when making an appointment of a co-opted governor in accordance with paragraphs 9 to 13, consider whether to appoint as such a governor a person nominated by the minor authority or (as the case may be) one of the minor authorities in question (unless one or more such persons are for the time being so appointed).
(2) Where any such school serves an area for which there are two or more minor authorities, the relevant governors may, for the purposes of the appointment of any such co-opted governor, seek nominations from any one or more of those authorities as the governors think fit.
(3) In this paragraph "the relevant governors" has the meaning given by paragraph 15(5).").
Page 144, line 2, at end insert--
("(4) Where the governing body of a maintained school includes any additional governors appointed in pursuance of paragraph 15, this paragraph shall apply to the school as if such of those governors as are nominated by a particular category of person constituted a separate category of governor.").
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 9, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 10 [Incorporation of governing bodies]:
Baroness Blackstone moved Amendments Nos. 146W to 146Z:
Page 144, line 18, leave out ("by") and insert ("before").
Page 144, line 23, leave out ("by") and insert ("before").
Page 144, line 25, leave out ("by") and insert ("before").
Page 146, line 27, at end insert--
4.--(1) If the school is discontinued, the governing body are dissolved by virtue of this paragraph--
(a) on the discontinuance date, or
(b) on such later date as the Secretary of State may specify by order made before the discontinuance date.
(2) In this paragraph "the discontinuance date" means--
(a) the date when proposals for discontinuing the school are implemented under Part III of Schedule 6,
(b) the date when the school is discontinued under section 29, or
(c) the date specified in a direction given under section 19(1) or 31(1),
as the case may be.").
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 10, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 11 [Membership and proceedings etc. of governing bodies]:
Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 147:
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 147, I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 148 and 152. Amendments No. 147 and 148 are an opportunity to ask the Government how they expect local authorities to be held to account for the standards they apply to governor training. Is this one of those wonderful bits of education legislation which leaves everybody powerless and the local authority without any real responsibilities or somewhere hidden in the wording is there something which will allow either the local people or the Secretary of State to impose some degree of guidance or control on the standards of governor training?
Amendment No. 152--a totally separate issue--concerns the meaning of the phrases "high standards" and "educational achievement". Perhaps I can find the
The promotion of high standards of educational achievement is a very noble aim, but it does not appear to be anchored to any ability to turn that into reality. If that is something that a governing body is supposed to do it must know what is meant by "high standards". One could say that the hills in East Anglia were high. By local standards they might be high, but they would not be high by Welsh standards. Educational achievement varies across the country in a similar fashion. I believe that a governing body should have regard to a national measure of "high standards" rather than whether it is doing better than its neighbours.
As to educational achievement, that can be very loosely and differently defined. What is important? What level of educational achievement is satisfactory? By what measures will such achievement be judged? I see nothing in the Bill to enable the Government or anyone else to set out the standards by which the two phrases in Clause 37(2) can be judged. My rather imperfect Amendment No.152 may provide a way of doing that, if it is put in the right place in the Bill. I beg to move.
The Chairman of Committees: I should point out to the Committee that, as Amendment No. 152 is also being spoken to, if Amendment No. 149A is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 150 to 152.
Page 148, line 24, leave out ("they consider") and insert ("is").
12.45 a.m.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page