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Lord Elis-Thomas: In view of the reassurances so ably drafted by the officials that will serve the assembly, I shall beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: I am not totally convinced that a division of the staff will not be necessary. When
I introduced the amendment, I believe that I made an error in describing the servants of this House as being members of the Home Civil Service. I am told that they are in fact employed by the Clerk of the Parliaments. I stand corrected by myself.We shall consider carefully what has been said. We may return to the subject at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
12.45 a.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 36 shall stand part of the Bill?
The Earl of Balfour: Clause 36 deals with inquiries and states:
- "The Assembly may cause an inquiry to be held into any matter relevant to the exercise of any of its functions".
Subsection (2) of the clause refers to Section 250 of the Local Government Act 1972 (witnesses and costs at local inquiries). Witnesses can be called and may be required to produce documents. However, the assembly is not a local authority; it is a new body. Surely a new body requires its own legislative powers to force a witness to be required to take an oath: "I will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".
In Scotland, the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936 clearly provides for the oath of witnesses, and if they do not take it they can be fined. I wish to draw the Committee's attention to Clause 25 of the Scotland Bill. Its title is "Witnesses and documents: general" and it states:
- "The Presiding Officer or such other person as may be authorised by standing orders may ... administer an oath to any person giving evidence in proceedings of the Parliament, and require him to take the oath. Any person who refuses to take an oath when required to do so ... is guilty of an offence".
I found nothing in this Government of Wales Bill which provides for these conditions of oath. It is an important point. I realise that the hour is late and I do not expect an answer from the Minister tonight. However, would he be good enough to look at the matter between now and Report?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: Yes, certainly.
Clause 37 [Polls for ascertaining views of the public]:
On Question, Whether Clause 37 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: I have a small point to make. I was reading the clause earlier. Subsection (1) states:
- "The Assembly may hold a poll in an area consisting of Wales or any part (or parts) of Wales for the purpose of ascertaining the views of those polled about whether or how any of the Assembly's functions... should be exercised".
That seemed fair enough. Then I noticed that in brackets it states:
- "(other than those under section 34)".
I went back to Clause 34, which states:
- "The Assembly may consider, and make appropriate representations about, any matter affecting Wales".
Does the bracket read "other than any matter affecting Wales"? I suspect that I know what is intended, but I wonder whether the draftsman would like to cast his eagle eye over this to ensure that there is not something wrong about the way the provision has been constructed.
Secondly, if it has been constructed the way I think it has, is that to prevent the assembly ever being able to organise a poll about the independence of Wales?
Lord Williams of Mostyn: The draftsman is, I am sure, absolutely confident in the rightness of his drafting--but will, of course, review it appropriately. There is no ulterior motive to be found in any clause of this magnificent construction.
Clause 43 [Different exercise of functions by Assembly]:
[Amendment No. 107 not moved.]
Clause 44 [Construction of references to Ministers and departments]:
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 108:
The noble and learned Lord said: This minor amendment to Clause 44 ensures that references in enactments to property vested in or held for the purposes of a government department are to be construed as including references to property vested in or held for the purposes of the assembly. The equivalent provision was made by subsection (2) of Section 74 of the Wales Act 1978.
The amendments are necessary because the assembly will not be a government department. The various references to land held by government departments would, without these amendments, need specific amendment in the transfer order or in an order under Clause 151. These arrangements will be relevant in relation to statutory provisions referring to Crown land. An example is Section 327(1) of the Highways Act 1980 which, in common with similar provisions, refers to Crown land as including land belonging to a government department. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 109:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 45 [Parliamentary procedures for subordinate legislation]:
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 110:
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 111A. These are drafting amendments. Subsection (1) of Clause 45 refers to, "make, confirm or approve", whereas subsections (3) and (4) refer only to "made". Amendment No. 111A also ensures that parliamentary procedures do not apply to subordinate legislation made by the assembly simply because the legislation is subject to the agreement of a Minister of the Crown or government department.
As we discussed in the context of cross-border matters, assembly subordinate legislation will be subject to parliamentary procedure if the assembly's legislation applies to England, or if it applies to the activities of a cross-border body outside Wales or if it contains legislation made by or with a Minister of the Crown. I invite Members of the Committee to agree these technical amendments.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 110A and 110B:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 111 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 111A:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 45, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Carter: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Returned from the Commons agreed to with amendments; the Commons amendments ordered to be printed.
Returned from the Commons agreed to with amendments and with a privilege amendment; the Commons amendments ordered to be printed.
Page 24, line 31, at end insert--
("( ) References in any enactment to property vested in or held for the purposes of a government department shall be construed as including references to property vested in or held for the purposes of the Assembly (and in relation to property so vested or held the Assembly shall be deemed to be a government department for the purposes of any enactment).").
Page 24, line 32, leave out ("subsection (1)") and insert ("this section").
Page 24, line 35, leave out (", confirm or approve").
Page 24, line 42, leave out ("that purpose") and insert ("the purposes of this Act").
Page 25, line 11, leave out from ("if") to ("in") in line 23 and insert ("it--
(a) contains subordinate legislation made or to be made by a Minister of the Crown or government department (whether or not jointly with the Assembly),
(b) contains (or confirms or approves) subordinate legislation relating to an English border area, or
(c) contains (or confirms or approves) subordinate legislation relating to a cross-border body (and not relating only to the exercise of functions, or the carrying on of activities, by the body").
Page 25, line 31, at end insert--
("( ) In this section "make" includes confirm or approve and related expressions (except "made exercisable") shall be construed accordingly; but an instrument (or draft) does not fall within subsection (4)(a) just because it contains subordinate legislation made (or to be made) by the Assembly with the agreement of a Minister of the Crown or government department.").
House adjourned at three minutes before one o'clock.
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