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Lord Holme of Cheltenham: My Lords, I am much obliged. I must say that that is a most gratifying rate of progress. I should like to congratulate the Minister on
having gone from 3 per cent. to 4 per cent. in the space of one short debate. Indeed, at this rate, we will soon have proper funding for education in Northern Ireland.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I take the noble Lord's point. However, we do listen to what he says and act accordingly.
The noble Lord also asked about integrated education. He will know that the Government are committed to extending integrated education in Northern Ireland, wherever local circumstances and local demand justify it. The figure of £41 million on maintained integrated schools represents an increase of £9 million on the previous year. I believe that to be a fairly hefty increase. I appreciate that the total sector is still small, but we are certainly committed to integrated education wherever local support justifies it.
The noble Lord, Lord Holme, asked about other costs, apart from Assembly costs, as regards giving effect to the agreement. These expenditures will be brought forward in the spring supplementary estimates against the other departments. I believe we shall have a further chance to debate that matter.
The noble Lord, Lord Cope, asked a question which, as I understand it, concerns resource accounting. I hope that I am right about that. The position is the following. The introduction of resource accounting essentially will bring the Civil Service cash-based finance systems into line with practice in the commercial world. I think the noble Lord was keen on that. It will introduce concepts such as capital depreciation and capital charging into the public sector financial area and as such provide more meaningful information on which to base judgments and take decisions. Challenging targets and clear objectives will be set against which resources will be allocated and utilisation monitored. These should in turn provide better information on which to consider and approve expenditure when debating and considering appropriation matters. I hope from those brief comments the noble Lord will feel that we are moving down the path that he is keen on--I know he has mentioned it in previous debates--and we shall have a system which will be more in line with practice in the commercial world. It may be easier to follow for those people used to the practices in the commercial world.
The noble Lord also asked about the future of Belfast Harbour. The Belfast Harbour commissioners made a suggestion to me about the future of Belfast Harbour. I have asked them to work out the proposals in some detail. These would involve a private/public partnership. When the proposals come back from the Belfast Harbour commissioners they will be subject to consultation before they come to the Government for approval. There is some way to go yet, but I am glad that the noble Lord thinks this is a useful way forward.
The noble Lord also asked about the Chancellor of the Exchequer 's package. As I understand it, that will represent expenditure in areas which in future will come under the assembly. It will concern expenditure in various of the six departments which will come under the new assembly and under the new ministers to be appointed in due course. I think I have dealt with all of
the points that have been raised. I am grateful for the helpful and supportive comments that have been made during the debate.On Question, Motion agreed to.
Government of Wales Bill
8.42 p.m.
Consideration of amendments on Report resumed on Schedule 9.
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 179:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, there are many amendments in this group but they all apply to the paragraphs in Schedule 9 to the Bill which are concerned with the Welsh Administration Ombudsman's jurisdiction. I said in Committee that I would need to return on Report to certain issues. These amendments have been brought forward on that basis but we have reconstructed the relevant paragraphs. I hope that makes the Bill clearer.
Amendments Nos. 179 to 198 introduce into this Bill a drafting technique already to be found in the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967. Where a body other than the assembly is listed as within the Welsh ombudsman's jurisdiction, appropriate limits to that jurisdiction can be established by the insertion of "notes" pertaining to the relevant body.
Amendment No. 181 adds to the ombudsman's jurisdiction complaints about the exercise of powers by an urban development corporation wholly in Wales; but just as in England, complaints about an urban development corporation's planning activities are to be excluded from the ombudsman's jurisdiction because there are alternative procedures for dealing with complaints about planning. Accordingly, Amendment No. 188 includes an appropriate "note" excluding the Welsh ombudsman's jurisdiction in such matters.
Amendment No. 188 also gives to the assembly, when it proposes to amend the list of bodies subject to the ombudsman's jurisdiction, the ability to add, omit or amend a "note" in relation to any body. The assembly might decide, for instance, that the National Museum of Wales should be a body within the ombudsman's jurisdiction, but it might wish to exclude from that jurisdiction a particular aspect of the museum's work, such as its collection and preservation policies. That could simply be achieved by the insertion into the list of bodies within jurisdiction the appropriately worded "note".
However, your Lordships will see from Amendment No. 194 that limits are placed on this power to add jurisdictional "notes", so that, for example, no "note" may have the effect of giving the ombudsman jurisdiction in respect of a body's functions not
Amendment No. 186 proposes changes to the definition of the sort of "body" which the assembly can add to the list of bodies within the ombudsman's jurisdiction. I indicated this in Committee. Amendment No. 186 makes clear that a government department is not a "body" for this purpose, and so the assembly could not add, say, the Department of Social Security to the Welsh ombudsman's jurisdiction. The power to add "bodies" is to apply only to non-departmental public bodies and the like. Amendments Nos. 187, 190, 197 and 201 all follow from that.
In summary, what is being done here is to specify with greater accuracy what are the bodies which may be added by the assembly to the ombudsman's jurisdiction, and to enable the assembly more precisely to specify what areas of a body's work are within, or excluded from, that jurisdiction. I beg to move.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, I have only one query and that is the reference in Amendments Nos. 188 and 194 to,
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, there may be a particular body which exercises functions within Wales; in other words, what I would call, probably rather bluntly, the territorial jurisdiction of the assembly. Therefore if there is a body within that territorial jurisdiction, it would, or could, fall within the ombudsman's remit. If, on the other hand, the same body exercised functions outside the territorial jurisdiction, that would not be within the jurisdiction of the Welsh ombudsman. I think that is right.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 180 to 195:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendments Nos. 180 to 195 en bloc.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Page 104, line 34, at end insert ("and
(b) subject to any notes in paragraph 14A(1), the bodies listed in sub-paragraph (1A).
(1A) The bodies referred to in sub-paragraph (1) are--").
"otherwise than in relation to Wales".
How far does that definition extend? What exactly is meant by,
"otherwise than in relation to Wales"?
Page 104, line 38, leave out ("Commission") and insert ("Commissioners").
Page 104, line 40, at end insert--
("( ) urban development corporations established for urban development areas wholly in Wales,").
Page 104, line 44, leave out from beginning to end of line 7 on page 105.
Page 105, line 8, leave out ("(1)") and insert ("(1A)").
Page 105, line 11, leave out ("other than the Assembly").
Page 105, line 13, leave out second ("paragraph") and insert ("paragraphs 14A and").
Page 105, line 14, leave out ("a government department and").
Page 105, line 21, leave out ("or (in the case of a government department) any of its Ministers").
Page 105, line 23, at end insert--
("14A.--(1) The notes referred to in paragraph 14(1)(b) are--
1. In the case of a body which has functions exercisable otherwise than in relation to Wales (as well as in relation to Wales or a part of Wales) no investigation may be conducted by the Welsh Administration Ombudsman in respect of action in connection with the exercise of the body's functions otherwise than in relation to Wales.
2. In the case of the Environment Agency no investigation may be conducted by the Welsh Administration Ombudsman in respect of action in connection with the exercise of its flood defence functions (within the meaning of the Water Resources Act 1991).
3. In the case of an urban development corporation no investigation may be conducted by the Welsh Administration Ombudsman in respect of action in connection with the exercise of its functions in relation to town and country planning.
(2) Subject to paragraph 15, the Assembly may by order amend sub-paragraph (1) by--
(a) adding any note,
(b) omitting any note, or
(c) amending any note
(3) If and to the extent that a function is exercisable in relation to the Welsh language or any other aspect of Welsh culture, it shall be regarded for the purposes of this paragraph and paragraph 15 as exercisable in relation to Wales.").
Page 105, line 24, leave out from ("under") to ("if") in line 25 and insert ("paragraph 14(4) may only add a body to paragraph 14(1A)").
Page 105, line 31, leave out ("either exercises its functions on behalf of the Crown or").
Page 105, line 32, leave out ("of this paragraph").
Page 105, line 43, leave out from beginning to end of line 11 on page 106.
Page 106, line 12, leave out from ("under") to ("a") in line 13 and insert ("paragraph 14(4) shall not add to paragraph 14(1A)").
Page 106, line 27, at end insert--
("( ) The Assembly may not make an order under paragraph 14A(2) if the result would be that the Welsh Administration Ombudsman could investigate action in connection with the exercise of a body's functions otherwise than in relation to Wales.
( ) In the case of a body which has functions exercisable in a field in which the Assembly does not have functions (as well as in a field in which it does)--
(a) where the Assembly by order under paragraph 14(4) adds the body to paragraph 14(1A) it shall (by order under paragraph 14A(2)) add to paragraph 14A(1) a note relating to the body, and
(b) the Assembly may not make an order under paragraph 14A(2) if the result would be that the Welsh Administration Ombudsman could investigate action in connection with the exercise of the body's functions in a field in which the Assembly does not have functions.
( ) In the case of a body which is an authority to which the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 applies--
(a) where the Assembly by order under paragraph 14(4) adds the body to paragraph 14(1A) it shall (by order under paragraph 14A(2)) add to paragraph 14A(1) a note relating to the body, and
(b) the Assembly may not make an order under paragraph 14A(2) if the result would be that the Welsh Administration Ombudsman could investigate action which can be investigated under the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967.").
Page 106, leave out lines 28 to 33.
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