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Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: While I am somewhat reluctant to halt this headlong dash for the tape as far as concerns the Committee stage of the Bill,
I am intrigued by the idea that some of Her Majesty's ships and aircrafts may be in the ownership of the Scottish administration. I was under the impression that defence was not a delegated power but was reserved. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord will tell me which ships and aircraft will be in the ownership of the Scottish administration, and who will be the admiral of the fleet.8 p.m.
Lord Hardie: In answer to the noble Lord's second question, perhaps he would be interested in applying. In answer to his first question, the provision relates to the defence not of the realm but of fish--a subject close to the noble Lord's heart. The fishery protection fleet is in part owned by the Scottish administration.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Hardie moved Amendments Nos. 292NA and 292NB:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale moved Amendment No. 292NBA:
Page 91, line 26, leave out ("38A") and insert ("38AB").
Page 92, line 19, at end insert--
("Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982 (c.27)
.--(1) Section 46 of the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982 (domicile and seat of the Crown) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (3), after paragraph (a) there is inserted--
"(aa) the Crown in right of the Scottish Administration has its seat in, and in every place in, Scotland,".
(3) In subsection (7), after "Kingdom" there is inserted ", the Scottish Administration".").
Page 92, line 34, at end insert--
. In section 1 of the Tourism (Overseas Promotion) (Scotland) Act 1984 (power of Scottish Tourist Board to promote tourism in Scotland outside UK), subsection (2) is omitted.").
The noble Baroness said: Amendments Nos. 292NBA and 292QC are consequential on the devolution of the subject of tourism. They remove the requirement for the Scottish Tourist Board to obtain the approval of Ministers, following consultation with the British Tourist Authority, for its overseas marketing activities.
Both the Scottish Tourist Board and the British Tourist Authority have the power to market Scotland overseas. This will continue. Following devolution, however, the STB overseas marketing activity will no longer be, as it is now, secondary to that of the BTA. Overseas marketing will simply be one of a number of activities which STB undertake and for which they will be accountable to the Scottish Ministers and through them to the Scottish Parliament. In these circumstances, the Government believe that a requirement to consult with the BTA would be inappropriate. We also believe that it is unnecessary to require the board to obtain the
Viscount Thurso: Perhaps I may seek clarification from the noble Baroness. Am I right to assume that tourism is a wholly devolved matter and that there is no requirement for the Scottish tourist minister (if such a person will exist in the executive) to have any connection with the BTA if Scotland chooses not to have that connection?
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: I think that the answer to that question is yes. If it is not, I shall write to the noble Viscount.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Hardie moved Amendment No. 292NC:
Page 94, line 3, at end insert--
.--(1) Section 12 of the Official Secrets Act 1989 (meaning of "Crown servant" and "government contractor" for the purposes of that Act) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), after paragraph (a) there is inserted--
"(aa) a member of the Scottish Executive or a junior Scottish Minister;".
(3) In subsection (2)(a), after "above," there is inserted "of any office-holder in the Scottish Administration,".
(4) After subsection (3), there is inserted--
"(3A) In this section "office-holder in the Scottish Administration" has the same meaning as in section 112(6)(a) of the Scotland Act 1998.".").
The noble and learned Lord said: This government amendment provides that members of the Scottish executive and junior Scottish Ministers are Crown servants for the purposes of the Official Secrets Act 1989. It ensures that they are subject to the offences created by the Act and that they are able to receive and, if necessary, disclose information covered by the 1989 Act. It will put them in the same position as Ministers in the UK Government. It will also put them in the same position as their staff, who will of course be civil servants and, as such, Crown servants without the need for any amendment.
The 1989 Act also makes provision about disclosures by government contractors--that is, essentially, those people who are not civil servants but who provide goods or services for the purposes of ministers, the civil service, the police and the military. Amendment No. 291NC provides that people providing goods and services for the purpose of any office-holder in the Scottish administration will also be government contractors for these purposes.
The amendment makes the correct provision. It is necessary for the Scottish Ministers to be able to carry out their duties to the full and for there to be no anomalies in the position of Ministers as against their civil servants in respect of access to information and I would urge the Committee to support it. We consider that the amendment tabled by the noble Lord,
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his explanation. I do not know whether or not Amendment No. 292ND is defective. It addresses the same problem. We are glad to see that the Government have taken the matter on board and have put forward their own amendment. I accept that it is properly drafted, but one never knows.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 292ND not moved.]
Lord Hardie moved Amendment No. 292NE:
The noble and learned Lord said: In moving the amendment, I speak also to Amendment No. 292QA. These amendments are intended to ensure that the High Court of Justiciary has appropriate powers to give effect to a decision by the Judicial Committee on an appeal from the High Court on a devolution issue.
The role of the Judicial Committee will be to make a determination on the issue. Having done so, it will inform the High Court of its decision. It will then be for the High Court to implement the determination in the circumstances of the particular case and for this purpose it will have all the powers it has when sitting as an appeal court.
While the High Court will have to give effect to the Judicial Committee's decision, it will have to consider what the implications of this are for the case, and whether a conviction should be affirmed, quashed or amended, or authority for a new prosecution granted. In some cases, it may be necessary to quash the conviction. In others, a number of charges may be involved. In these cases the sentence may also require to be reviewed as well. The point is that it will be for the High Court to decide what is appropriate.
The amendments also make it clear, however, that any earlier acquittal or quashing of a conviction in the proceedings will not be affected by any determination of an appeal by the Judicial Committee.
Further amendments to the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 will be made by an order under Clause 96, a working draft of which has already been placed in the Library. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Viscount Thurso moved Amendment No. 292P:
The noble Viscount said: With the leave of the Committee, I should like to move the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie. My speech will necessarily be brief because until my noble friend had to catch a flight I did not have the slightest knowledge or understanding of the amendment.
The amendment seeks to insert the words "or by a solicitor" after the words "counsel" at line 18 on page 95. It is an entirely probing amendment and boils down to a simple question. I understand that it comes from the Law Society of Scotland. The simple question is to discover whether in the Bill, and in the Act when it is enacted, the word "counsel" will include or exclude solicitor advocates.
I understand that, in the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, the Criminal Legal Aid (Scotland) Regulations 1996 and the Criminal Legal Aid (Scotland) (Fees) Regulations 1989, it states specifically under "Interpretation" that counsel includes a solicitor advocate. However, the Code of Conduct (Scotland) Rules 1992 for solicitors appears to separate the two. Therefore there may be some misunderstanding. Effectively the Law Society of Scotland would like to know whether solicitor advocates are included in Schedule 7 and will have the right to plead in court. My instructions are that if I receive any confirmation, I can withdraw the amendment with grace. I beg to move.
Page 94, line 39, leave out from beginning to ("there") and insert--
(".--( ) The Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 is amended as follows.
( ) After section 288").
Page 95, line 18, after ("counsel") insert ("or by a solicitor").
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