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Lord Skelmersdale: Before the noble Lord leaves that point, does he accept that he and other noble Lords who have served as United Kingdom Ministers in Northern Ireland have acted under a form of delegated authority? If he accepts that, surely to goodness the Ministers who are the representatives of the assembly on these bodies ought to act with the same kind of delegated authority. At the moment, as I understand it, there is no system for the assembly to delegate a Minister to do a job. It might well be that a way out of this would be to have in the assembly's standing orders the power of delegation from the whole assembly to the Ministers who are going to participate in these bodies.
Lord Dubs: If the noble Lord is talking about standing orders, those will be up to the Assembly. It is not a matter which we would want to put on the face of the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Holme, asked about Ministers' attendance. Ministers are obliged to attend. It is part of the condition of their taking office that they have to fulfil their responsibilities. Those include attending North-South Ministerial Council meetings where they are appropriate for them. The failure of any Minister to do so would be a matter with which the assembly would then have to deal.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: Unless I missed it, I am not sure that the noble Lord responded to Amendment
No. 111B; that is, which Ministers are to be allowed to authorise other Ministers to enter into an agreement. The question is whether or not the First Minister and Deputy First Minister are able to nominate someone to enter into an agreement.
Lord Dubs: The noble Lord may have missed it. I said at the beginning that I was grateful for his helpful comments and that I would consider the matter further.
Lord Holme of Cheltenham: On the point about ministerial attendance, the words used are "reasonable attendance", which implies a less than 100 per cent. attendance. So, with respect, the noble Lord's reply that Ministers are expected to attend does not solve the problem of "reasonable attendance". If the representatives of two parties did not attend, would that still be "reasonable attendance"?
Lord Dubs: I am anxious not be drawn into too much detail on this point. However, if it so happens that on a particular occasion and for good reason a Minister is unable to attend, that would come within the scope of "reasonable". If there is a deliberate intention not to take part, that would be unreasonable.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: This debate is founded on Amendment No. 111A. I was interested in the Minister's phrase that he was "influential with" parliamentary counsel over the matter of cross-headings as opposed to being "in charge of" parliamentary counsel. I know exactly what he means and I am glad that he will use his influence correctly. In the light of what he said about Amendment No. 111A, I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment No. 111A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 111, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 111B, as an amendment to Amendment No. 111, not moved.]
On Question, Amendment No. 111 agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 112:
Lord Cope of Berkeley moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 112, Amendment No. 112A:
The noble Lord said: I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment No. 112A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 112, agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 112B to 112D, as amendments to Amendment No. 112, not moved.]
On Question, Amendment No. 112, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 113:
After Clause 43, insert the following new clause--
(".--(1) This section applies to any agreement or arrangement entered into by a person participating, by reason of a nomination under section (North-South Ministerial Council and British-Irish Council), in a meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council or the British-Irish Council.
(2) Provision may be made by Act of the Assembly for giving effect to any agreement or arrangement to which this section applies, including provision--
(a) for transferring to any authority designated by or constituted under the agreement or arrangement any functions which would otherwise be exercisable by any Minister or Northern Ireland department;
(b) for transferring to a Minister or Northern Ireland department any functions which would otherwise be exercisable by any authority outside Northern Ireland.
(3) Subsection (2) has effect notwithstanding anything in subsection (2)(a) of section 6; but it does not affect--
(a) the operation of subsection (2)(b) to (f) of that section; or
(b) the operation of section 7 or 13 in relation to the enactment of any Act of the Assembly.
(4) No agreement or arrangement to which this section applies entered into for the establishment after the appointed day of an implementation body shall come into operation without the approval of the Assembly.
(5) In subsection (4) "implementation body" means a body for implementing, on the basis mentioned in paragraph 11 of Strand Two of the Belfast Agreement, policies agreed in the North-South Ministerial Council.").
Line 3, leave out ("person") and insert ("Minister").
4 p.m.
After Clause 43, insert the following new clause--
(".--(1) This section applies where excepted or reserved matters relating to Northern Ireland are to be discussed at a meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference.
(2) The First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly shall ensure that there is such attendance at the meeting as appears to them to be required by the Belfast Agreement.
(3) In this section "attendance" means attendance by one or more Ministers.").
The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 113 deals with attendance by Northern Ireland Ministers at meetings of the British-Irish intergovernmental conference which is to be set up for the purpose of enabling the British and Irish Governments to co-operate on all matters of mutual interest, including non-devolved Northern Ireland affairs. This clause provides that when Northern Ireland matters are to be discussed at a meeting of the conference, the First and Deputy First Ministers shall ensure such attendance by Northern Ireland Ministers as is required by the agreement.
I should like to take a few moments to emphasise the significance of the clause. Previously, the British and Irish Governments came together in an Anglo-Irish intergovernmental conference to discuss a range of issues in relation to Northern Ireland. It was a cause of some frustration that there was no involvement of the elected representatives of Northern Ireland during those discussions. That is now being remedied in the new British-Irish intergovernmental conference.
Furthermore, the British-Irish intergovernmental conference will enable the two governments to work together on all matters of mutual interest. While Northern Ireland will be a key part of that agenda, it will be open to Ministers to discuss any issues of mutual concern.
Amendments Nos. 113A and 113B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cope, deal also with the attendance of Northern Ireland Ministers at meetings of the British-Irish intergovernmental conference. The former
Lord Cope of Berkeley moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 113, Amendment No. 113A:
The noble Lord said: I was interested to hear the Minister say that he thought that if the wording were tidied up by leaving out subsection (3) and incorporating the point in subsection (2), it would somehow weaken the definition of "attendance". However, subsection (3) says that:
A further thought that strikes me in order to ensure cross-border representation is that the provision should say--and could do so in either of the methods to which I have just referred--that two Ministers should normally be expected to attend so as to ensure cross-community representation. That is a separate point and the Minister has said that he will look at it.
A suggestion made to me is that the Belfast agreement, at paragraph 7 on page 15, more or less gives the First Minister and Deputy First Minister the right to attend. It states:
A different and wider point arises from what the Minister said. He used the expression "including non-devolved matters". As I understand it, the British-Irish intergovernmental conference will discuss only non-devolved matters. It will not discuss devolved matters. Strand 3 says about the British-Irish intergovernmental conference that it will,
Line 6, after ("attendance") insert ("by at least two Ministers").
"'Attendance' means attendance by one or more Ministers".
It struck me first that we might include the phrase "one or more Ministers" after "attendance" in subsection (2). That would mean that with rather better English we should have achieved in one subsection what it has taken the draftsman two subsections to achieve. That is a purely drafting amendment of no great consequence except to improve the English, which we always seek to try to do.
"Relevant executive members of the Northern Ireland Administration will be involved in meetings of the Conference, and in the reviews referred to in paragraph 9".
That seems more or less to give them the right to attend. I am not quite sure that that is fully carried into the Bill by Amendment No. 113.
"promote bilateral co-operation at all levels on all matters of mutual interest within the competence of both Governments".
But of course the Government are devolving to Northern Ireland a raft of responsibilities. Paragraph 5 states that,
"there will be regular and frequent meetings of the Conference concerned with non-devolved Northern Ireland matters".
21 Oct 1998 : Column 1458
The paragraph later refers to,
"cross-border co-operation on non-devolved issues".
Paragraph 6 states:
"The conference also will address ... areas of rights, justice, prisons and policing in Northern Ireland (unless and until responsibility is devolved to the Northern Ireland administration)".
Once devolved, the British-Irish intergovernmental conference will cease to be involved in those matters, as the agreement stands.
"This section applies where excepted or reserved matters relating to Northern Ireland are to be discussed".
That implies that devolved matters will be discussed sometimes but goes on to imply that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will not attend when devolved matters are discussed but will attend when non-devolved matters are being discussed. That is extremely odd. I believe that further reflection may be necessary in relation to these provisions.
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