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Lord Cope of Berkeley: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 127 not moved.]
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 128:
The noble Lord said: Government Amendment No. 128, which affects Clause 51, is the first in a series of amendments which fulfil undertakings given by my right honourable friend the Minister of State in another place to the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. It makes the Assembly responsible for
In another place my right honourable friend undertook to consider whether we could make additional amendments to the Bill which would bring the audit provisions more into line with those in the Scotland Bill. I hope to do so on Report.
In connection with the same clause, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Cope, to reconsider his Amendment No. 129 which makes the Secretary of State responsible for advising Her Majesty about a suitable candidate for appointment as Comptroller and Auditor General. The comptroller will audit the expenditure of a devolved Assembly and other bodies for which the Secretary of State will have no financial responsibility. It would be contrary to the principles of devolution for the Secretary of State to be involved in making a recommendation to the Queen about such a devolved post.
Amendment No. 128A proposes to insert a reference to "junior Minister". I have sympathy with this. We shall be reviewing generally the various references to Ministers and junior Ministers before Report.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: This series of amendments concerns the position of the Comptroller and Auditor General. There are three points to consider. There is also the minor point of the insertion of the words "junior Minister". In the light of what the Minister has said, I shall not move the relevant amendment when we reach it.
The three points of substance are, first, the appointment of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland; secondly, his independence; and, thirdly, his relationship with the main Comptroller and Auditor General. It is proposed that, as in Scotland, the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland should be appointed on the nomination of the Assembly. The main Comptroller and Auditor General for the United Kingdom is appointed now by the Commission of the House of Commons. That seems to me to be the better way to do it rather than have the Assembly make the nomination. I shall not press that point. I believe that he should be appointed through the parliamentary machinery. I think that is probably the correct way to appoint him. Therefore I shall not pursue Amendment No. 129.
Secondly, we are also concerned about the independence of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I shall leave that matter until we discuss later amendments. The third aspect is the position of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland vis-a-vis the main Comptroller and Auditor General for the United Kingdom. I am not sure whether the latter will have any oversight over what the CAG for Northern Ireland does. After all, we are talking here substantially about United Kingdom taxpayers' money. There should
This is a difficult point but it is important to get it right. There has long been a separate Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland, as there has been a separate Consolidated Fund for many years. That has continued to be the position--in some respects this is slightly anomalous--during direct rule. The CAG for Northern Ireland is still in post, as he has been throughout the period of direct rule. If possible, I should like to be given reassurance now or later on the matter of the relationship between the CAG and the CAG for Northern Ireland.
Lord Holme of Cheltenham: I think that the key issue here is the relationship between the Comptroller and Auditor General for the UK as a whole and the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland. I look forward to hearing the Minister's comments on that point. The noble Lord, Lord Cope, rightly said that we are talking here substantially about British taxpayers' money. Although we have a devolved Assembly, the oversight of the correctness of process seems to me to be relevant to the British taxpayer too. I should be grateful if the Minister could spell out what relationship, if any, is envisaged between the Comptroller and Auditor General for the United Kingdom and the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland.
Lord Dubs: The Northern Ireland Comptroller and Auditor General will be entirely independent. It is not envisaged that he would in any way report to the United Kingdom Comptroller and Auditor General, or indeed that there would be oversight on the part of the UK comptroller over the Northern Ireland comptroller. That is not the intention. However, in a more informal sense there is nothing to prevent the Northern Ireland Comptroller and Auditor General from having links with the United Kingdom Comptroller and Auditor General. I believe that has been the case in the past and will continue in the future. However, in a formal sense, the Northern Ireland Comptroller and Auditor General will be entirely independent.
Lord Holme of Cheltenham: Before the noble Lord sits down, will he go further as it would be extremely sensible to establish some rationalisation of process and approach between the two Comptroller and Auditor Generals, even, as he put it, on an informal basis?
Lord Dubs: I fear if it were to be suggested that the Northern Ireland comptroller would in some way report to the United Kingdom comptroller, that would detract from the authority of the Northern Ireland Comptroller and Auditor General. I think it is proper to view the Northern Ireland Comptroller and Auditor General as
Lord Holme of Cheltenham: If the noble Lord will forgive me, that is not what I said. I did not suggest that the Northern Ireland comptroller should report to the UK comptroller. I asked the Minister whether he would go so far as to say that it would be extremely sensible and desirable for them to establish a close liaison on process and other matters. I did not merely suggest that that might happen, but rather that it would be sensible for it to happen.
Lord Dubs: There would be a lot of sense in pursuing informal contact and informal co-operation of that kind. I know the noble Lord did not quite suggest the point to which I replied. I simply wanted to establish the independence of the Northern Ireland Comptroller and Auditor General as well as agreeing that informal links and a relationship with the UK Comptroller and Auditor General would be mutually beneficial.
[Amendment No. 128A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 128, not moved.]
On Question, Amendment No. 128 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 129 not moved.]
Clause 51, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Desai moved Amendment No. 130:
Page 25, line 15, at end insert ("on the nomination of the Assembly.
( ) The Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland shall not, in the exercise of any of his functions, be subject to the direction or control of any Minister or of the Assembly; but this subsection does not apply in relation to any function conferred on him of preparing accounts.").
Before Clause 53, insert the following new clause--
(".--(1) Sections 53 to 57 shall have effect from such day not less than four and not more than six years after the passing of this Act as the Secretary of State may by order appoint.
(2) An order under subsection (1) shall also establish a period of at least one year within which relevant bodies, organisations and individuals may submit proposals for and comments on the powers and functions of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission; and the Secretary of State shall ensure that that consultation period is otherwise advertised in such manner as he considers appropriate.
(3) The Secretary of State shall, by the day appointed under subsection (1)--
(a) commission a review of the operation of--
(i) existing legislation relevant to the work of the Fair Employment Commission for Northern Ireland, the Equal Opportunities Commission for Northern Ireland and the Commission for Racial Equality for Northern Ireland; and
(ii) the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 insofar as it has effect in Northern Ireland,
and, on the basis of that review, propose new legislation to consolidate and, where appropriate, amend that legislation; and
(b) propose legislation for Northern Ireland to prohibit discrimination on grounds of age and sexual orientation.").
The noble Lord said: I wish to move this amendment which stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Morris of Manchester. He regrets that he cannot be present because he has a prior appointment. He has already spoken to this amendment when he spoke to Amendments Nos. 38 and 39 on Monday. I refer to cols. 1236-38 of the Official Report. I do not wish 7 p.m.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I have serious doubts about the wisdom of this amendment, although I understand why it is being moved. It seeks to delay the establishment of the new Northern Ireland human rights commission for at least four years to allow for a period of consultation with various bodies and individuals on the powers and functions to be given to the human rights commission, and then to allow for a review to take place of all existing equality legislation so as to consolidate and amend the quality of that legislation.
We on these Benches strongly support the need to consolidate existing equality legislation, which is in a hopeless mess, and to turn it into a comprehensive, user-friendly equality code, just as the Treasury is seeking to turn the mess of the financial services legislation into a sensible, user-friendly code. It is important that there should be effective enforcement of the equality code, and that it should be extended to cover, for example, discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation and age and to have an equal and consistent method of enforcement. However, we do not believe that such a review, which we believe is urgent, should be linked in any way to the establishment of the human rights commission. Equality issues are linked with other human rights issues. However, we should not wish to do anything to delay the establishment of such an important body as the Northern Ireland human rights commission in accordance with the Good Friday agreement.
What is absolutely vital is that the equality commission should have the same status as the human rights commission; that there should be no devolution of the equality legislation to the Northern Ireland Assembly, because it is a core civil right. There should be no dilution, no placing of the equality code under the will of the majority in the Northern Ireland Assembly--it should remain a core responsibility--and there should be an effective and speedy review of the underlying equality law throughout the United Kingdom as a whole.
For those reasons we oppose this amendment as merely delaying the setting up of a human rights commission--which we deplore--and not sufficiently dealing with the underlying malaise in equality legislation or the need to make the equality commission a strong and effective enforcement agency.
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