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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, yes, we have already done so. The comprehensive spending review published in July set spending limits for departments for three years and proposed new terms of reference for the pay review bodies to ask them specifically to consider recruitment, retention and motivation, the department's output targets for the delivery of services, the department's three-year expenditure limits, and the Government's inflation target. Those considerations will also be relevant to other pay settlements in the public sector.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, my noble friend is a world-renowned expert on these subjects and I yield to his expertise. I had hoped that he would recognise that I described a substantial move away from the short-termism of which he complains. The whole basis of three-year planning, which will be updated from time to time, is to ensure that departments, which will have responsibility for budgets, and employees have a longer term horizon in which to look at pay awards.
Lord Razzall: My Lords, does the Minister agree that at an inevitable consequence of staying within the previous government's spending plans for the first two years of government serious pressures build up in the public sector? Is the Minister prepared to make a statement to reassure in particular nurses and teachers that their voice will be heard before further damage is done to their morale?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the Government do not apologise for their prudence in sticking to existing expenditure plans for the first two years. I did not notice the noble Lord's party adequately recognising the way in which that abstinence made it possible this summer to have the sensible and widely welcomed comprehensive spending review. As regards the build-up of pressure in the public services, of course it is the case and of course it is an inevitable consequence. That is why we are looking at a three-year horizon for pay awards in the future.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, so does the Minister give an undertaking today that there will be no phasing of awards in the public sector; that there will be no shilly-shallying; that the money will be paid up; and that there will be plenty of it to do all those things which he used to press the previous government to do?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the Labour Party indeed pressed the previous government to move away from staging. I did not notice the noble Lord giving any particular support. Of course, we want to move away from the staging of pay awards. If the pay review bodies propose affordable solutions we will move away from staging as rapidly as possible.
Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, in spite of what my noble friend the Minister said in his Answer, does he agree that a long-term strategy in the public sector would be greatly influenced by a long-term
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I admire my noble friend's restraint in avoiding use of the phrase "fat cats". As he well knows, under existing company legislation we have no power to intervene directly. However, he is right in saying that bad examples from the boardroom make the achievement of sensible pay settlements in the private and public sectors that much more difficult.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, as I said in answer to a previous question, one of the issues in the terms of reference of the pay review bodies will be the recruitment, retention and motivation of staff. That applies at least as much in the National Health Service as anywhere else. As regards whether departments will succeed in achieving their financial objectives over a three-year period for the improvement of services, which is their first responsibility, and yet have money in order to give greater awards to nurses, it is a matter for them. I hope as much as the noble Lord does that they will be successful.
Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister accept that having a coherent strategy over three years solves no problems; it depends on the strategy? Secondly, will he accept that during the past 20 years the differential in pay between the public and private sectors has moved consistently against the public sector? Will he further accept that if the public sector--the welfare state--is to meet the level of services to which he referred it will not happen in a box separate to that amount of pay but can happen only if teachers and nurses are adequately paid, not least in order to enable the Government to deal with the severe shortages which are appearing in both those areas?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the noble Lord is right in saying that of itself a three-year settlement does not cure all the other problems. No one ever claimed that it did. As regards the disparity between public and private sector incomes, the noble Lord will be aware that the Office for National Statistics has been required to look again at the figures it produced. Our interim conclusions appear to be that the difference between the public and private sectors was not as great as originally appeared. We have set up an independent inquiry under Sir Andrew Turnbull and
Lord McCarthy: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the questions he was asked focused once again on short-term problems? Does he agree that one thing the Government could do would be to announce the universal availability of pay review? Will they do so today?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am not responsible for the questions I am asked. I can only answer them as best I can. My noble friend's suggestion about wider applicability of pay reviews is very interesting and we shall take it into consideration.
Lord Beloff: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the document, the European Pack, and the report on the British presidency of the European Union, which were circulated to all schools, give a wholly biased opinion in favour of the alleged merits of the European Union and leave it to the teachers, no doubt, to balance that by giving the other aspects which are less favourable? Would it not be fairer to the teachers to provide them also with documentation which would enable them to present the full case? If it is difficult for that to be done within the department, cannot the Minister ask her noble friends Lord Shore of Stepney and Lord Bruce of Donington to produce a pack which can be circulated to schools?
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, it is open to any school to invite my noble friends Lord Shore or Lord Bruce to talk about their views on the European Union. I suspect that one or two may follow up the noble Lord's suggestion. The presidency pack, which was distributed to schools, was done entirely at the
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