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Lord Molyneaux of Killead: I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate and for the constructive way in which they have approached the subject. Perhaps I may assure Members of the Committee that there is no danger whatever--and certainly no intention on the part of any elected representatives in Northern Ireland--to introduce any new draconian legislation. There would simply be a determination to preserve the situation as it presently exists; that is to say, the position as it existed in Great Britain prior to the 1967 Act.
In regard to what the Minister said about those who participated in the drafting of the agreement, I am quite confident that if this very question had been put to them as representatives of both ends of Ireland--indeed, practically every party in Northern Ireland was represented--there would have been a resounding victory along the lines of the amendment that I have tabled this evening.
I have great sympathy with the views expressed from the Front Bench opposite by the noble Lord, Lord Cope, that we should withdraw the amendment and then reflect upon what has been said and what the position ought to be before we reach Report stage. Because some noble Lords may have entered the Chamber after this debate commenced, I remind the Committee that in the debate on the Scotland Bill on 27th July the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, said that abortion had been placed in the list of reserved matters and that that decision could be reviewed by agreement between the two parliaments--that is, the Westminster Parliament and the Scottish parliament. So, in fairness, I think that the same ought to apply in regard to the position of the Northern Ireland Assembly vis-a-vis what it recognises, and what we all recognise, as this sovereign Parliament.
I hope--indeed, expect--that the Minister will reflect on what has been said in the debate and on that statement made by his noble friend from the Scottish Office and thereby perhaps find a way of bringing forward a modest amendment on Report. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 259 not moved.]
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 260:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 261 not moved.]
Lord Dubs moved Amendments Nos. 262 and 263:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 264:
The noble Lord said: This amendment and Amendments Nos. 272 and 279 are drafting improvements to achieve more consistency in referring to the subject matter of legislation. They do not affect the substance of the reservations. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 265 and 265A not moved.]
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 266:
The noble Lord said: This amendment will make the functions and procedures of the Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland a reserved matter for the purposes of Schedule 3. The appointment of persons to the Office of the Civil Service Commissioner for Northern Ireland will remain an excepted matter under the control of Her Majesty. We believe that it is right to continue to protect such appointments in this way. However, we felt that there was a gap in respect of provision to protect the functions and procedures of the Civil Service Commissioners. We therefore consulted all the parties about making this a reserved matter and none has objected.
The effect of the amendment will be to allow the Assembly to legislate on this matter while reserving for the Secretary of State a degree of control when considering the question of consent under the Bill. By taking the commissioners out of the transfer field, it also slims down very slightly the nature of Her Majesty's prerogative powers as respects transferred matters and prevents them from being dealt with under Clause 18. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendments Nos. 267 and 268:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 269:
The noble Lord said: This amendment extends the reservation in paragraph 16 of Schedule 3 which deals with trade in any place outside the United Kingdom to include to non-trade import and export controls. This is to cover situations where goods are being imported or exported otherwise than in the course of trade--for example, if the goods are for the importer's or the exporter's own use rather than pursuant to a commercial transaction. The areas in which there would be controls on such imports and exports include conventional arms and endangered species. I beg to move.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: I rise briefly to point out that this amendment means that Customs and Excise will in this respect and in one or two others ultimately come under the jurisdiction of the Assembly and the executive because the latter have the responsibility of carrying out import and export controls of this kind. That is not necessarily a knock-down argument for making this an excepted matter rather than a reserved matter, but it is something that should be reflected upon within government circles.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Holme of Cheltenham moved Amendment No. 270:
The noble Lord said: I shall be brief in what I have to say. In a sense this is a probing amendment because the matter was raised on Second Reading. The reason I wish to return to it is that at that time the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said that this was specifically a matter for the single European market and that was why it could not be a transferred matter. However, if it is a matter for the single European market, why then is it not an excepted matter?
I believe that the furtherance of trade between the Republic and Northern Ireland is an extremely important issue fully in tune with the Good Friday agreement, and that there is a substantial bonus available from greater trade in terms of prosperity for the people of both parts of the island. One would hope to see much activity in Strand 2 and strand 3 to make sure that bonus is realised. I hope the Minister can answer my next point. If this is a matter for the single European market, why is it not excepted rather than being, as the Bill proposes, reserved, or as I propose, transferred? I beg to move.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: If the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, is right--namely, that matters which come within the single market of the Community ought to be excepted--presumably paragraph 16 of Schedule 3 should refer to trade with any place outside the European Union because the measure affects not only the Republic of Ireland but also other countries within the European Union. That is a slightly wider point, but like the noble Lord, Lord Holme, I too hope that the
Lord Monson: I take this opportunity to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, and his noble friend on employing the correct term "Republic of Ireland" in their amendment rather than the incorrect term "Ireland" which is used elsewhere in the Bill.
Lord Dubs: Amendment No. 270, which has been proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Holme and Lord Lester, deals with the reservation in paragraph 16 of Schedule 3 of trade with any place outside the United Kingdom. The noble Lords propose that the furtherance of trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland should be removed from that reservation, making it a transferred matter.
I fully agree with the noble Lords that the Assembly should be free to take measures to promote the trade of Northern Ireland. Indeed, I am sure that the Assembly will be keen to do all it can to promote Northern Ireland's exports. That is quite right. But I consider it vitally important that the Assembly should be able to promote Northern Ireland's trade, not only with the Republic of Ireland but throughout Europe and worldwide. The Bill already allows for this: subparagraph (a) of paragraph 16 carves out from the general reservation,
Page 45, line 18, at end insert--
("Sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) do not include any matter within paragraph 16 of Schedule 2.").
Page 45, line 23, after ("persons") insert ("(other than the Ministry of Defence Police)").
Page 45, line 24, at end insert ("; the Parades Commission for Northern Ireland").
Page 45, leave out lines 30 and 31 and insert--
(". The subject-matter of the Emergency Powers Act (Northern Ireland) 1926.").
6.15 p.m.
Page 45, line 39, at end insert--
(". The functions and procedures of the Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland.").
Page 45, line 43, at end insert--
(". The subject-matter of sections 149 to 151 of and Schedules 5 and 5A to the Social Security Administration (Northern Ireland) Act 1992 (Social Security Advisory Committee and Industrial Injuries Advisory Council).").
Page 45, line 43, at end insert--
(". The subject-matter of the Vaccine Damage Payment Scheme.").
Page 45, line 44, at beginning insert ("Import and export controls and").
Page 45, line 46, at end insert--
("( ) the furtherance of trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland;").
"the furtherance of the trade of Northern Ireland".
The proposed amendment is not therefore necessary. I hope the noble Lord will not press it.
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