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Lord Renton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. There is one problem in dealing with the matter in that way. If we accept the new clause as it stands, it will become part of our statute law and
we shall have the long delay of 120 days, and perhaps sometimes even longer, before what may be an urgent and important matter can be dealt with. As the select committee said, it utterly belies the fast track procedure, which is something that both Houses of Parliament presumably favour. Therefore, I have to say that the noble Lord's idea of letting us approve the new clause as it stands, without striking out one paragraph, is unsatisfactory and taking a big risk.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, as the Minister has not yet sat down, perhaps I may ask if he can deal with the points I raised about the victim. The Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 is, of course, not dealing with the same situation. The Bill is designed to give an effective and speedy remedy.
My points relate to the problem that the Government have in being too democratic. They have bent over backwards. I appreciate that they have gone further than the scrutiny committee. They point out that they have gone so far that something very bad will be produced which will mean resort to emergency procedures because everything will have to become an emergency or there will be great and unnecessary delay in securing a remedy. I appreciate the importance of the parliamentary Select Committee and I hope that that will be done swiftly. I am concerned to clarify the consequences if we accept the amendment as it stands.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I understand that. But one needs to put it into context and into proportion. Here we are introducing two different types of orders, quite different from the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act. I repeat that if the matter is urgent, and if there are compelling reasons--that takes into account the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, about the victim--then we can proceed on the basis of urgent remedial action. If it is non-urgent remedial action, we offer Parliament the opportunity of 120 days.
May I suggest that 120 days, in terms of having a right remedied and an injustice put right, is a very short time indeed if one is considering the balance of having proper parliamentary scrutiny. I am happy that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, accused me of being unduly democratic. A number of your Lordships have said that they are uneasy about the principle of remedial orders and that there is insufficient parliamentary scrutiny. We have bent over backwards, first, to maintain the urgent, compelling remedial route, and, secondly, to have the non-urgent remedial route which gives 120 days for consideration. The period of 120 days is not a vast amount of time for consideration and representations.
Lord Renton: My Lords, surely the greatest problem is that reconciliation--and that is what we are all aiming for--needs to be carried out as soon as possible and indeed failure to do so may lead to grave injustice. Those cases are more likely to have a time factor which is of importance than to be the sort of cases that can be dealt with at leisure.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, as always, I listened with care to the noble Lord, Lord Renton. There
may well be urgent, compelling cases, which is why we have the urgent, compelling procedure. However, we suggest that for the non-urgent cases 120 days is a decent amount of time for parliamentary scrutiny.I believe that we have got the balance right. The more I think about it and the more I listen with care to the arguments put forward, I am sure that we have got it right. If we have bent over too far to submit to parliamentary scrutiny and parliamentary will, I am content.
5.10 p.m.
On Question, Whether the Motion shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 109; Not-Contents, 48.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Christopher, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleraine, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Erroll, E.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grenfell, L.
Halsbury, E.
Hamwee, B.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Jay of Paddington, B. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Levy, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
McConnell, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Paul, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Shannon, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.
Ampthill, L.
Balfour, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Berners, B.
Biddulph, L.
Bridges, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Burnham, L. [Teller.]
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Chesham, L.
Cockfield, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Elton, L.
Ferrers, E.
Harlech, L.
Harrowby, E.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
Kintore, E.
Kitchener, E.
Lauderdale, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Mancroft, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Mountevans, L.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Onslow, E.
Renton, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stockton, E.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Torrington, V.
Trefgarne, L.
Vinson, L.
Young, B.
Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.
27
Clause 10, Page 7, line 33, leave out from ("that") to end of line 36 and insert ("there are compelling reasons for proceeding under this section, he may by order make such amendments to the legislation as he considers necessary to remove the incompatibility.").
Page 7, line 42, leave out from ("that") to end of line 43 and insert ("there are compelling reasons for proceeding under this section,").
Page 7, line 45, leave out ("appropriate") and insert ("necessary").
Page 8, line 1, leave out from beginning to ("where") and insert--
Page 8, line 4, leave out ("section 12(1)(b)") and insert ("paragraph 2(b) of Schedule (Remedial orders)").
Page 8, leave out lines 8 and 9.
Page 8, line 11, at end insert--
Clause 11. Leave out Clause 11.
Clause 12. Leave out Clause 12.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 27 to 35.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 27 to 35.--(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
28
29
30
("(4) This section also applies").
31
32
33
("( ) Schedule (Remedial orders) makes further provision about remedial orders.").
34
35
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