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Lord Selkirk of Douglas: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. But there is a basic inconsistency in it because coal, oil and gas are reserved, but uranium, which can be used as a nuclear fuel, is not reserved. I am simply saying to the Minister that if uranium deposits are discovered in considerable quantities, it is inconceivable that the United Kingdom Parliament would say that it is not a matter for it. If the United Kingdom Parliament intervenes and does what the Minister says by introducing an Order in Council, the Scottish parliament will very much resent such interference. However much the Minister may say that the United Kingdom Parliament is sovereign, if it is not a reserved matter the Scottish parliament will very much resent that interference and it will give rise to conflict between the two parliaments.
I am suggesting to the Minister that it would be better if this matter was thought out in greater depth and these matters reserved, otherwise he will be storing up problems for the future. Having said that, I have put down a marker and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Hardie moved Amendments Nos. 226A to 226D:
Page 87, line 4, leave out from ("authority") to ("a") in line 5 and insert ("if some of its functions relate to reserved matters and some do not, unless it is").
Page 87, leave out lines 14 and 15 and insert--
("( ) An authority to which this paragraph applies is referred to in this Act as a Scottish public authority with mixed functions.").
Page 87, line 17, at end insert ("(referred to in this Act as a Scottish public authority with no reserved functions)").
Page 87, line 29, at end insert--
.--(1) This Schedule does not reserve giving financial assistance to commercial activities for the purpose of promoting or sustaining economic development or employment.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1)--
(a) does not apply to giving financial assistance to any activities in pursuance of a power exercisable only in relation to activities which are reserved,
(b) does not apply to Part I of this Schedule, except paragraph 9, or to a body to which paragraph 3 of this Part of this Schedule applies,
(c) is without prejudice to the exceptions from the reservations in Sections 2 and 3 of Head 5.
(3) Sub-paragraph (1) does not affect the question whether any matter other than financial assistance to which that sub-paragraph applies is reserved.").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to move Amendments Nos. 226A to 226D en bloc. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale moved Amendment No. 226E:
The noble Baroness said: Amendments Nos. 226E and 226F constitute drafting amendments to the provisions of paragraph 4 of Schedule 5 which say how references to "any enactment" in Schedule 5 are to be read.
Schedule 5 describes reserved matters and generally speaking is intended to fix those matters as at the principal appointed day. This is done sometimes by using general words and sometimes by referring to the subject matter of an enactment. In both cases it is intended that the description is fixed as at the principal appointed day but what may fall within the description may change.
At the moment the Bill provides that all enactments referred to in Schedule 5 are to be read as they have effect on the principal appointed day. That is correct where an enactment is referred to in order to identify subject matter. The reserved matter is the subject matter of that enactment on the principal appointed day.
However, where the reference is not to the subject matter of an enactment--for example, on page 72, at line 38, part of the reservation of insolvency is described in terms of,
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale moved Amendment No. 226F:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 8 [Modifications of enactments]:
Lord Hardie moved Amendment No. 226G:
Page 87, line 31, after first ("to") insert ("the subject-matter of").
"any other enactment relating to the sequestration of the estate of any person"--
it is appropriate for the reference to be dynamic and automatically to cover future enactments. The amendment permits this to happen. I beg to move.
Page 87, line 32, after ("to") insert ("the subject-matter of").
Page 96, line 10, at end insert--
. In section 1 of the United Nations Act 1946 (measures to give effect to decisions of Security Council), in subsection (4), for the words following "shall" there is substituted "forthwith after it is made be laid--
(a) before Parliament; and
(b) if any provision made by the Order would, if it were included in an Act of the Scottish Parliament, be within the legislative competence of that Parliament, before that Parliament."").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, Section 1 of the United Nations Act enables Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to give effect to resolutions of the Security Council. Noble Lords will be aware that that happened recently in connection with the venue of the proposed trial in the Lockerbie case following the United Nations resolution.
Amendment No. 226G amends the wording of subsection (4) of Section 1 of the Act to provide that any Order in Council made under it will be laid before the Scottish parliament as well as before Westminster if any provision in the order would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish parliament. I beg to move.
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, while I can well understand why this amendment has been tabled, perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate can explain whether or not it would be competent for the Scottish parliament to challenge, either in principle or in detail, an Order in Council which may be laid before it in the terms of this amendment.
Lord Thomson of Monifieth: My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord also say what would happen if there was a dispute between the Scottish parliament and the Westminster Parliament in that regard?
Lord Hardie: My Lords, perhaps I may deal with both questions together. The amendment is designed to cover a situation similar to that surrounding the Lockerbie trial. If there were a United Nations resolution which affected a Scottish criminal trial, then to give effect to that resolution there would require to be an Order in Council. However, because it affects the Scottish criminal law, the intention would be to place it before the Scottish parliament as well as the Westminster Parliament.
Of course, the Scottish parliament would be obliged to give effect to the United Kingdom's international obligations in terms of the United Nations resolution, which would call on the United Kingdom as a whole to comply. The Order in Council, having been ratified by the Scottish parliament, would enable the Scottish courts to proceed in accordance with Scottish procedure.
10.15 p.m.
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, he said that the Order in Council would be ratified by the Scottish parliament. I have looked at the United Nations Act
1946 and, as I understand it, the procedure involves the provision being laid before this Parliament and, quite frankly, this Parliament has to take it or leave it because it involves implementation of an international obligation.
Lord Hardie: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is correct. "Ratified" was the wrong word. Indeed, I believe that I referred earlier to the provision being "laid before".
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Hardie moved Amendment No. 226H:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting amendment. The amendments made by the Bill to the Lands Tribunal Act 1949 ensure that remuneration of members of the Lands Tribunal is a charge on the Scottish Consolidated Fund. The amendment makes the position clearer than did the original provision. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Sewel moved Amendment No. 226J:
Page 97, line 18, leave out from ("Scotland)") to end of line 24 and insert--
("(a) in subsection (9)--
(i) after "effect" there is inserted "with the omission of subsection (8) and", and
(ii) in paragraph (a), for "(8)" there is substituted "(7)", and
(b) after that subsection there is inserted--
"(10) The remuneration of members of the Lands Tribunal for Scotland shall be charged on the Scottish Consolidated Fund."").
Page 97, line 42, at end insert--
. In section 1(6) of the Superannuation Act 1972 (superannuation as respects civil servants, etc.), for "or the Consolidated Fund" there is substituted "the Consolidated Fund or the Scottish Consolidated Fund".").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment will enable the Minister responsible for the Civil Service to admit persons remunerated out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund to the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme where that may be appropriate. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
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