| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 17:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 37 [Powers in relation to the Agency]:
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 18:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 41 [General interpretation]:
Lord Jopling moved Amendment No. 19:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in view of the hour, I shall try to be brief. Perhaps I may begin by apologising to the Minister for intervening during the debate on the first amendment after he had spoken. I am afraid that 33 years of bad habits at the other end of the
This amendment arises from a point I raised at the Committee stage when I noticed that throughout the Bill there is reference to the Secretary of State. It occurred to me, as a former Minister of Agriculture, that the Minister of Agriculture has no role in the Bill with regard to a great many issues in which he has a great interest. I have in mind agriculture, fisheries, the food manufacturing industry and sea and flood defences, among other things. It seemed to me that that was a mistake.
At this stage I think I should explain why the Minister of Agriculture is the only Minister in the Cabinet who does not have the rank of Secretary of State. It is purely a sentimental and historic reason. I think I am right in saying that every Minister of Agriculture in recent years has been begged by the Cabinet Office to agree to become a Secretary of State. Over the years every one of us has said, "No, it has always been the Minister of Agriculture", and we have resisted the blandishments of becoming a Secretary of State. I can remember the invitation coming at the time. I know that the late Lord Peart and our friend, the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, turned down that same invitation.
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is excluded on the face of the Bill from a number of those important functions purely by historical quirk over the definition of a Secretary of State. I raised this point in Committee. The Minister was extremely kind and referred me to the Interpretation Act 1978. I looked it up--I had not been aware of it--and read that "Secretary of State" was defined as "any Secretary of State". In this Bill there are a number of areas in which the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food can have a most useful function in relation to both himself and the regional development agencies, but he is precluded from doing so because he is not a Secretary of State. For example, in Clauses 7 and 27 the Secretary of State may give the rural development agencies a certain amount of guidance and direction. As to guidance, I would have thought that as far as concerned the RDAs that was something that the Minister of Agriculture could usefully do.
In Clause 11 power is given to the Secretary of State to give grants to regional development agencies. One can envisage a situation in which functions can be usefully carried out on behalf of the Minister but he is precluded from giving them grants for that purpose. That does not seem to be very clever. Finally, in Clause 16 one sees that the Secretary of State can receive such information, advice and assistance as he may require. That is all very nice for the Secretary of State for Wales who is also the Minister of Agriculture for Wales, but the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by definition cannot receive such information, advice and assistance as he may require. That appears to be a ridiculous state of affairs.
This anomaly is caused by a quirk of history. In moving this amendment I have no desire to suggest that the Minister of Agriculture should be the lead Secretary of State in this matter. All I ask is that in the provisions
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the situation with which we are dealing results in part from the historic diffidence of Ministers of Agriculture in refusing the title "Secretary of State" even when offered it, and in part, I believe, from the noble Lord's misinterpretation of what the generic term "Secretary of State" means. It is right that the term "Secretary of State" is defined in the Interpretation Act 1978 and that it includes all Secretaries of State. Therefore, were the Secretary of State who currently deals with this Bill, the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, indisposed, somebody else would sign for him. It does not however mean that other Secretaries of State have powers within the Bill that are denied to the Minister of Agriculture.
The term "Secretary of State" is used partly because, unlike the Ministry of Agriculture which, by and large, has kept the same boundaries for many decades, other ministries in Whitehall have altered their configuration; most recently my own department following the coming to power of this Government. Therefore, the term "Secretary of State" must stand for the Secretary of State who is responsible for the areas covered by this Bill. Likewise, Home Office legislation gives powers to the "Secretary of State" but for practical purposes the powers are the Home Secretary's, not the powers of the Foreign Secretary or any other Secretary of State. In this case the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions is the lead Secretary of State. The DETR is the sponsoring department for RDAs and, incidentally, the lead department on rural policy. Therefore, it is appropriate that the term "Secretary of State" should be used. It does not give powers to departments other than those which are inherent in the collective responsibility to make sure that the RDAs work.
I do not believe that the Minister of Agriculture is disadvantaged by this arrangement. Although he is not directly responsible for any of the functions of RDAs, MAFF as the sponsoring department for agriculture has an important interest in their work and is fully involved both in the process of deciding board appointments and, more generally, the preparatory work for RDAs, particularly on the rural side. For example, the rural guidance fully involves the Ministry of Agriculture.
I accept that there are a few pieces of legislation where a different approach is adopted and that while the term "Secretary of State" is used and it is assumed that that is the Minister who has main responsibility, there are references in parts of the legislation to other
In so far as the arguments of the noble Lord are predicated on the assumption that the Minister of Agriculture is disadvantaged, I do not accept them. I believe that in relation to the one example cited by the noble Lord--grants--government finance for RDAs from whichever department, whether it be DTI, DfEE or the Ministry of Agriculture, will be channelled through the DETR. Therefore, with respect to other Secretaries of State and other departments the Minister of Agriculture is not disadvantaged. There is one particular respect in which the Minister of Agriculture would have powers under this Bill. I refer to Clause 6 where power is given to delegate functions to the RDAs. That power is exercisable by a Minister of the Crown. That would include explicitly the Minister of Agriculture.
Although at first sight this is a strange way for legislation to operate this is how it has operated for decades. In this particular respect I hope that I have said sufficient to indicate that the Minister of Agriculture and thereby the agricultural interest is not disadvantaged by the fact that he and many of his predecessors have declined the title and with pride have kept the title "Minister of Agriculture". The agricultural interests will be represented here. The Minister of Agriculture will have no fewer powers than Secretaries of State who have an interest in the areas covered by RDAs. I hope that with that explanation, which has been a little complex, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Page 16, line 42, leave out from ("provision") to end of line and insert--
("(a) requiring the Commission to make one or more schemes for the transfer of such of the Commission's property, rights and liabilities as appear to the Secretary of State appropriate to be transferred in consequence of the order, and
(b) applying Schedule 8 in relation to a scheme under the order, with such modifications as the Secretary of State thinks fit.").
Page 18, leave out line 7 and insert--
("(a) requiring the Agency to make one or more schemes for the transfer of such of the Agency's property, rights and liabilities as appear to the Secretary of State appropriate to be transferred in consequence of the order, and
(b) applying Schedule 9 in relation to a scheme under the order, with such modifications as the Secretary of State thinks fit.").
Page 20, line 26, at end insert--
("notwithstanding the provisions of section 5 of, and Schedule 1 to, the Interpretation Act 1978, "Secretary of State" shall be interpreted to include the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.").
7.45 p.m.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page