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Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, that is not accurate. I said that arguments are being adduced which make the previous arguments appear a little unreasonable.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, it still sounds like coming down off the fence. But I shall let it pass. The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, has come forward with a proposal which leaves the power to this Parliament but puts an arm-lock on the issue if it is held by the Scottish parliament. I suggested that she might do so. My noble friend Lady Carnegy pointed out that the Scottish parliament can act only for Scotland. That is true; we could not suggest that a draft provision be laid before the Scottish parliament which affected England. However, I do not believe that the United Kingdom Parliament would ever countenance different time-zones within the United Kingdom.

Your Lordships know my simple view that if the Americans manage to operate with different time-zones it is not because they are more clever than the British or the Europeans. I do not understand the great obsession with having the same time-zone over the whole of Europe, but it is important for the whole of the United Kingdom. I do not believe that the UK Parliament would proceed for part of the United Kingdom if the Scottish parliament said that the change could not be made in Scotland. I believe that the UK Parliament must take that into account. To that extent, the noble Lady has achieved her objective in the amendment and I would support it. I can think of nothing more divisive occurring in the next few years than the Westminster Parliament, driven largely by English interests which seem unable to live with a time-zone different from the Continent, deciding to have Summer Time all year round, with the Scots being as opposed as ever.

It is well worth remembering that after three or four years the experiment collapsed because of pressure not only from Scotland but from the north of England and the west. As was explained clearly on a previous occasion by the noble Lord, Lord Howie of Troon, it is not just a case of northward but also of westward. The

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United Kingdom does not lie north/south; as one goes further north it inclines heavily to the west. Therefore, that factor must be taken in account, too. I am happy to support the noble Lady's amendment.

Lord Hardie: My Lords, we are all agreed that it is inappropriate to have different time-zones within the United Kingdom. It is in everyone's interest that there should be a common time-zone. I understand what the noble Lady is trying to achieve with the amendment; she does not wish Central European Time to be introduced in Scotland and on Report she stated that she was unsure that the United Kingdom Parliament would consider Scotland's interests after the Scottish parliament had been established.

With great respect, I cannot agree with that assertion. After devolution, Scotland will remain fully represented both here and in another place. In addition, it will be open to the Scottish parliament to make its feelings known if the issue is ever discussed in Westminster.

There is a further difficulty. As was pointed out by the noble Lords, Lord Forbes, Lord Mackie of Benshie and Lord Howie of Troon, the amendment introduces a veto. I would go further and say that it is anomalous. It appears to allow the reservation of the issue of time-zones and the Summer Time Act 1972 but then effectively devolves to the Scottish parliament the final say on time-zones applicable to Scotland. That approach is quite unacceptable to the Government and I hope to the rest of the House. Nothing else in the Bill is treated in this way. No other reserved issue is then pulled back as a devolved issue. I cannot think of any valid reason why this issue should be treated differently from the other issues covered by the Bill. Indeed, I believe that this amendment offers a dangerous approach which might run the risk of undermining the devolution settlement. I am sure that would be furthest from the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish. I ask the noble Lady to withdraw her amendment.

Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, I should like to say that he seems to be putting undue weight on the capacity of the United Kingdom Parliament, dominated, let it be said, by Englishmen--

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, my noble friend must realise that we are at Third Reading. He did not rise to ask a question, but to make a different point. Surely that cannot be acceptable.

Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, well--

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am sorry, I must ask my noble friend to resume his seat.

Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, I was just about to do so. If I may say so, my noble friend leapt up the second time a little too rapidly.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, we have had an interesting and rather amusing debate on this amendment. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have

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supported me. I am very sorry that the Government are determined not to accept it because our parliament should have some control, over a matter which affects the lives of us Scots so much. Therefore, I ask for the opinion of the House.

8.11 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 39) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 42; Not-Contents, 103.

Division No. 4


Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Attlee, E.
Borthwick, L.
Byford, B.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chesham, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V.
Dundonald, E.
Ellenborough, L.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Geddes, L.
Harlech, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Inglewood, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kintore, E. [Teller.]
Lang of Monkton, L.
Leigh, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Monson, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Northesk, E.
Rawlings, B.
Renton, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. [Teller.]
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Sharples, B.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stair, E.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Wedgwood, L.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bragg, L.
Burlison, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Gilbert, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hacking, L.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Judd, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Northfield, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

9 Nov 1998 : Column 586

8.20 p.m.

Clause 91 [Maladministration]:

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale moved Amendment No. 40:

Page 43, line 24, leave out ("118") and insert ("117").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Clause 117 is one of a set of clauses--Clauses 117 to 124--which is concerned with how existing enactments are to be read. The Scottish parliament is to make its own provision about maladministration. For that reason functions under the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 are not to be transferred to Scottish Ministers. In that context, Clause 91 already provides that Clause 53, the clause that deals with the transfer of functions, does not apply in relation to functions confirmed by or under the 1967 Act.

Clause 91 also provides, or it was the intention that it should provide, that all relevant clauses which say how Acts are to be read, where functions transfer down, similarly do not apply. However the reference to Clause No. 117, the first in the set of relevant clauses, was inadvertently omitted at an earlier stage in the drafting of the Bill. The amendment simply remedies that omission and leaves the way clear for the parliament to develop its own arrangements for dealing with maladministration. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 95 [Appointment and removal of judges]:

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