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Division No. 1


Addison, V.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Ampthill, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Balfour, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Berners, B.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Borthwick, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Bridges, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterfield, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L. [Teller.]
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Davidson, V.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Downshire, M.
Dundee, E.
Eames, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Exmouth, V.
Fookes, B.
Gainsborough, E.
Gisborough, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Haddington, E.
Haig, E.
Halsbury, E.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harlech, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harrowby, E.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kenyon, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Knollys, V.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Layton, L.
Leigh, L.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
McConnell, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Merrivale, L.
Milverton, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L. [Teller.]
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Moran, L.
Mottistone, L.
Munster, E.
Nickson, L.
Norrie, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Rees, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Romney, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Sandford, L.
Sandwich, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Southwell, Bp.
Stockton, E.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Swinfen, L.
Swinton, E.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Weatherill, L.
Westbury, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Annan, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Brightman, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dholakia, L.
Diamond, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Glenamara, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Headfort, M.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Levy, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Ludford, B.
McCarthy, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northfield, L.
Ogmore, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Thurso, V.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

10 Nov 1998 : Column 641

3.49 p.m.

Clause 2 [Previous enactments]:

[Amendment No. 3 not moved.]

Clause 4 [Transferred, excepted and reserved matters]:

Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 4:

Page 2, line 19, leave out ("(2)") and insert ("(2)(a)").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this appears to be a modest amendment but an important point lies behind it which we discussed briefly during the course of the Committee stage. This part of the Bill provides for the situation where powers, having been in one of the categories of either transferred or reserved, are moved to the other. Westminster and Whitehall then cease to have responsibility for certain matters and the Assembly and the Executive take on that responsibility or, conversely, the powers are returned to Westminster. When that happens an order will be laid which will have

10 Nov 1998 : Column 642

to be approved not only by Parliament in Westminster but also by the Assembly with cross-community support in a resolution. That is fair enough and I agree with it in relation to the transfer of powers to Northern Ireland from Westminster. But my amendment seeks to say that a resolution of the Assembly shall not be required when powers are being transferred by the Secretary of State from Northern Ireland back to Westminster.

As I said in Committee, there may be occasions when the Assembly is unable to obtain cross-community support to give up one of its powers even though many in the Assembly and the Executive think it desirable that it should. In Committee we discussed briefly when powers might be taken back. The Minister gave the example of powers being transferred to Northern Ireland but, because of a change in the powers of the European Union in Brussels, the requirement for one negotiating stance by the United Kingdom Government might necessitate the taking back of the powers. I found that a slightly odd example because quite a large number of important powers are being transferred to the Executive in which the European Union plays a large part. Agriculture and fisheries are two obvious examples. I do not suppose for a moment that the Government intend to take back agriculture and fisheries because of Northern Ireland negotiations. However, if they should wish to do so, the chances of the Assembly agreeing with cross-community support to them being taken back seem to be as near nil as makes no difference. One can think of other less prominent examples of that process.

In future, it may be that law and order powers and so on are transferred to the Assembly and the Executive. If all goes smoothly it is desirable that that should in due course happen. I urge caution in doing so but, nevertheless, it should in due course happen. However, it may be that subsequent to that the situation deteriorates once again and the further use of troops is required. In that case it would be extremely difficult to get the Assembly to give up the powers through a cross-community vote. In those circumstances the Secretary of State, with the approval of both Houses of the Westminster Parliament, should be able to take back the powers regardless of the fact that there was not full cross-community support for that proposition within the Assembly itself. That is the purpose of Amendments Nos. 4 and 5. I beg to move.

Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, I warmly support the amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Cope, said that they are modest amendments. I believe it is important that residual powers should remain at Westminster because we are entering uncharted waters. There is the question of serious division arising within the new structure. No one can foretell exactly what that would mean. It would be a great mistake to equate the structure there with that which is proposed for Scotland. There will be a party or perhaps two parties in power in Scotland. Then, at a general election, the balance of power may change, but there will be a degree of stability which will not be apparent or real in the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is because everyone is in government and a general election for the Assembly will make no difference to the management of the affairs of

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the Assembly and of Northern Ireland generally. At most it will mean a slight change in the electoral balance. A 0.5 per cent. change under the d'Hondt system might affect the distribution of a junior ministry.

As the noble Lord, Lord Cope, wisely said, the new structure, even with the best will in the world, could be subject to the effects of what Harold Macmillan called, "Events, dear boy, events". Those cannot be foreseen. Through long experience and expertise, the Parliament of the United Kingdom is always able to cope with such unexpected events, but it would be too much to expect a brand new and untried structure to be as efficient as that in its early stages. I think that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, with the authority of both Houses of Parliament of the United Kingdom, should have that power.

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