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Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, Amendment No. 30 provides for the establishment of a department under the direct charge of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. On the basis of the Minister's description it appeared to be the equivalent of a Prime Minister's department for Whitehall which has sometimes been discussed but has never been adopted in that form. But the First Minister and Deputy First Minister might regard it as appropriate, for example, to place themselves in charge of the Department of Finance and Personnel or some other department, particularly if law and order were subsequently transferred to the responsibilities of the Northern Ireland authorities. One wonders whether that would be possible under this amendment should that decision be made. I do not want to push it in that direction but I believe that such flexibility should remain.
As to Amendment No. 33, I express conditional gratitude to the Minister for adding his name to my Amendment No. 33. It is conditional because it is all about moving the definition of "Minister" out of Clause 20. We both agree that it should be moved out of that clause. However, the Minister wants to insert it earlier in the Bill, whereas I suggest in Amendment No. 125 that it would be better if it appeared in Clause 92 which contains other definitions. I believe that it is for the convenience of those who read Acts of Parliaments that as far as possible definitions should be included in a single interpretation clause so that they can be readily referred to instead of having to refer backwards and forwards in the Bill. Sometimes a definition refers to a single clause, in which case it is appropriate to leave it in that clause. However, the phrase that is here defined is used throughout the Bill on many occasions. I believe that the definition would be better placed in Clause 92. As to Amendment No. 34 dealing with the prerogative, I agree with the arguments that the Minister put forward.
5 p.m.
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, we have some concerns on this matter. Can the Minister reassure us that the effect of the clauses is not to boost the relative importance of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and therefore to depart from the principles set out in the agreement that ministries be allocated in proportion to the party's strength?
Lord Dubs: My Lords, on the last point the answer is yes. It is not intended to achieve any such untoward result and to give a party particular advantage.
In answer to the specific question of the noble Lord, Lord Cope, the amendments would not give the power for the First Minister or the Deputy First Minister to take on, for example, the Department of Finance. However, under Clause 15(7) the First Minister and Deputy First Minister may be put in charge of another department such as the Department of Finance and Personnel. The power is in another part of the Bill. The noble Lord shakes his head.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, Clause 15 has only five subsections.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. Clause 16(7) gives the power for the First Minister or Deputy First Minister to be put in charge of another department if that were the wish. It does not make it mandatory.
On the point made by the noble Lord regarding where the definition of a Minister should go in the Bill, it would be helpful if I can speak to that on a later amendment rather than at this point.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 20 [Statutory functions]:
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 31:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 32:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 20(1) states that:
Lord Monson: My Lords, I confess that I only spotted the amendment 20 minutes ago, but I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Cope, is right to move it. First, as the noble Lord indicated, the wording of Clause 20(1) is ambiguous. It is not immediately clear whether the name refers to the Minister or the function. Assuming it is the latter, would it not be clearer simply to insert the word "specific" before the word "function"?
Secondly, one wonders how necessary subsection (1) is even if the drafting were to be tidied up. Does a similar provision appear in the Scotland Bill; and, if not, why not?
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am grateful for this amendment, which I believe is also designed to clear up some points about the drafting of this clause. I suspect the noble Lord's concerns centre on the idea of legislation conferring functions on a department or even more oddly a Minister "by name". This is not something which is generally done with UK legislation.
I should make it clear here that when the clause talks about conferring functions on Ministers by name, it does not mean conferring them on Ministers personally. That would clearly be absurd.
The reason Northern Ireland legislation differs from that in the United Kingdom is that Northern Ireland does not have the concept of the Secretary of State at large. Most Westminster legislation confers functions on the Secretary of State. Theoretically, any Secretary of State could exercise the functions of another and ministerial responsibilities are allocated administratively.
In Northern Ireland, however, functions will need to be conferred on specific departments in most cases, and much more rarely on Ministers. While I appreciate the wording might look odd at first sight, I believe that it is appropriate, and I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, there is no difference between us in what we seek to achieve. The provision could be more happily worded by stating "on a specific Minister". I had thought of inserting "on a Minister by title", but in your Lordships' House one's title is one's name. Although that might get round the problem in one sense, it might be misunderstood at least within these four walls.
I leave the Minister to consider the amendment further between now and Third Reading, and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 33:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 21 [Prerogative and executive functions]:
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 34:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 22 [Community law, Convention rights etc.]:
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 35:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 24 [Internal obligations]:
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 36:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 37:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 38:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 26 [Agency arrangements between UK and NI departments]:
Page 11, line 12, leave out ("or Northern Ireland department") and insert ("(but not a junior Minister) or a Northern Ireland department").
Page 11, line 12, leave out ("by name").
"An Act of the Assembly or other enactment may confer functions on a Minister or Northern Ireland department by name".
I wonder why the words "by name" are there. What on earth do they mean?
Page 11, line 17, leave out subsection (3).
Page 11, line 21, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert--
("(2) As respects transferred matters, the prerogative and other executive powers of Her Majesty in relation to Northern Ireland shall, subject to subsection (3), be exercisable on Her Majesty's behalf by any Minister or Northern Ireland department.
(3) As respects the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the Commissioner for Public Appointments for Northern Ireland, the prerogative and other executive powers of Her Majesty in relation to Northern Ireland shall be exercisable on Her Majesty's behalf by the First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly.
(4) The First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly may by prerogative order under subsection (3) direct that such of the powers mentioned in that subsection as are specified in the order shall be exercisable on Her Majesty's behalf by a Northern Ireland Minister or Northern Ireland department so specified.").
Page 11, leave out line 38 and insert ("section (Entrenched enactments).").
Page 12, line 9, after ("obligations,") insert ("with the interests of defence or national security or with the protection of public safety or public order,").
Page 12, line 13, after ("obligations,") insert ("of safeguarding the interests of defence or national security or of protecting public safety or public order,").
Page 12, line 20, leave out ("would be incompatible with any international obligations,") and insert--
("(a) would be incompatible with any international obligations, with the interests of defence or national security or with the protection of public safety or public order; or
(b) would have an adverse effect on the operation of the single market in goods and services within the United Kingdom,").
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