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Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. However, I believe that this amendment is an unnecessary complication of the procedure by which a Minister may authorise a colleague to enter into agreements on his or her behalf. It would mean that a Minister who, for whatever reason, was unable to attend the council would have to be nominated to attend, and presumably decline to do so, before being able to authorise someone else to conduct business. That is not necessary and I must in those circumstances resist the amendment.
The process envisaged in the Bill is straightforward. If a Minister is unable to attend, the First and Deputy First Minister may make an alternative nomination from among the other Ministers and junior Ministers. To enable the delegation to enter into any agreements or arrangements within the area of responsibility of the absent Minister, a Minister may authorise another Minister or junior Minister to act on his or her behalf.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, for the third time running I did not expect any concessions from the Minister as he has committed himself on at least two other occasions this afternoon. In the light of that explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 63:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of Amendment No. 63 is to ensure that there is a statutory authority for the Northern Ireland contributions towards the costs of the North-South Ministerial Council and the British-Irish Council to be met. In relation to the North-South Ministerial Council, this gives explicit effect to paragraph 15 of strand 2, which states that funding of the Council is to be provided by the two administrations--that is, Belfast and Dublin--on the basis that it constitutes a necessary public function. Paragraph 8 of strand 3 similarly states that the members of the BIC will provide such financial support as it may require.
What are the expenses referred to in the amendment? In the case of the North-South Ministerial Council, there will be costs associated with the holding of meetings and with the operation of the standing joint secretariat, which is to be staffed by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the Irish Civil Service. In the case of the British-Irish Council, there will also be costs associated with meetings, particularly when they are held in Northern Ireland.
These are important institutions. They will reflect a new set of relationships within the island of Ireland and between these islands. It is important that there is clear authority to provide the necessary funding to support them. I beg to move.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, as far as the expenses of the councils are concerned, I obviously entirely agree that we should implement the agreement and that a proportion of the expenses should fall on Northern Ireland. I was interested that it was expressed as the "Department of Finance and Personnel". It seems quite likely that it will become two departments in due course. At the moment relatively few Ministers conduct the affairs of Northern Ireland and the Department of Finance and Personnel has been one department for quite a long time. Personnel is quite a different matter from finance in many respects. As far as the Whitehall
Another quite separate point arises out of this amendment. The amendment not only inserts the words referred to on the Marshalled List about the defraying of expenses but deletes the fact that subsection (3) does not affect the operation of Clause 22 in relation to the powers of Ministers. Clause 22 is all about Community law and convention rights and matters of that kind, which we have discussed and perhaps become embroiled in at different times. But all of a sudden, in the middle of an amendment apparently providing simply for the defraying of expenses, the operation of Clause 22 seems to be affected by the words being deleted. We need to know from the Minister why those words are being deleted as well as why the new words, referring to a quite different subject--finance--are being inserted into the Bill by Amendment No. 63. I should like the Minister, if inspiration has struck him, to help the House in that respect as well.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, perhaps I may deal with one or two of the specific questions that have been put to me. The effect of subsection (8) was moved to subsection (3) by Amendment No. 55, with which we have already dealt. As regards the reference made by the noble Lord, Lord Cope, to the Department of Finance and Personnel, if, under a rearrangement of departments, the Department of Finance and Personnel is split up or its functions moved elsewhere, this function will move. As the noble Lord anticipated in what he said, consequential changes can be made when functions are moved between departments.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 64:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, noble Lords will be aware that, throughout the consideration of these clauses, one of the most significant areas has been the authority and accountability of Northern Ireland Ministers taking part in the North-South Ministerial Council. As a Minister myself, I understand the importance of being clear about one's authority to take decisions and one's accountability to the legislature.
Amendment No. 64 will put beyond all doubt that Ministers have authority to participate in the North-South Ministerial Council only to the extent that such participation is in accordance with paragraphs 5 and 6 of strand 2 of the agreement. Paragraph 5 sets out the various levels at which Ministers will participate in the council; paragraph 6 outlines the authority for such participation.
I think it would be helpful if I reminded noble Lords of the exact wording of paragraph 6. It states:
Throughout the Bill we have sought to implement the provisions of the agreement; no more and no less. Noble Lords have heard me say that on countless occasions. That is true in this area as much as any other. Through this amendment, we are making clear that participation in the North-South Ministerial Council is to be exactly that which was agreed by the parties on Good Friday and that Ministers must act in accordance with paragraphs 5 and 6 of strand 2. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 51 [Agreements etc. by persons participating in Councils]:
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 65:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Turner of Camden): My Lords, I call Amendment No. 67 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, appear jointly on this amendment. Perhaps the noble Lord will do the honours.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 67:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to have the first go at this amendment. Amendment No. 67 changes the reference in Clause 51(2)(a) from "authority" to "body". Although this may seem a minor point, it was one on which a number of noble Lords commented during Committee and to which, on reflection, I am willing to respond. The noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, tabled an equivalent amendment and will, I trust, be pleased that we have proposed such a change.
The paragraph, as revised, will allow provision to be made to transfer functions from a Minister or Northern Ireland department to any designated "body". This language is, I believe, more in line with the language of the agreement which speaks of implementation bodies operating under the North-South Ministerial Council.
The noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, tabled a further amendment, Amendment No. 68, proposing an equivalent change to Clause 51(2)(b). I reflected carefully on this point and indeed consulted with parliamentary counsel. I concluded that "authority" is the correct term in this paragraph for persons exercising
Page 26, line 42, leave out subsection (8) and insert--
("( ) The Northern Ireland contributions towards the expenses of the Councils shall be defrayed as expenses of the Department of Finance and Personnel.").
6 p.m.
Page 27, line 3, leave out ("paragraph 5") and insert ("paragraphs 5 and 6").
"Each side to be in a position to take decisions in the Council within the defined authority of those attending, through the arrangements in place for co-ordination of executive functions within each jurisdiction. Each side to remain accountable to the Assembly and Oireachtas respectively, whose approval, through the arrangements in place on either side, would be required for decisions beyond the defined authority of those attending".
Page 27, line 7, after ("Minister") insert ("or junior Minister").
Page 27, line 13, leave out ("authority") and insert ("body").
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