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Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, I was put into an accounting and audit office at an early age. Although I got out of it after a few years and am now an extremely rusty accountant and auditor, that was my original training. I therefore have the greatest sympathy for the efforts of the Government to insert proper control and audit procedures into the Bill.
It is important that the Northern Ireland Comptroller and Auditor General should continue to function on the basis on which he has functioned over the past few years. Given the differences with the new Assembly and the new set up. I hope he will function to the high standards to which he has functioned over the past few years and in an equivalent manner to the way in which the Comptroller and Auditor General functions in the United Kingdom and, as it will be, in England and Wales for most matters.
It is, of course, a big constitutional change for this Parliament and particularly another place to give up responsibility for an enormous block of expenditure and hand it over to a different assembly. In doing so I think another place, which has played a historical role in it, needs the reassurance of a proper audit arrangement and a proper set up within which the Comptroller and Auditor General can function.
I am slightly nervous about leaving the Assembly free to alter the audit controls, although I realise that the provisions are limited, as the Minister stated. But this is a most important part of the Bill. Given the difficulties which may arise and to which I referred earlier in organising finance in Northern Ireland, compounded by the problems there have been in the Province as a result
of rackets and so on, it is important that the audit function is carried out rigorously and the proper arrangements set up for it to report to the Assembly in the manner which the new clause suggests. I therefore support the amendment.On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 86:
The noble Lord said: This amendment frees the Comptroller and Auditor General from the direction and control of the Northern Ireland departments as well as those of the Assembly and Ministers. This is a necessary part of his independence. I beg to move.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, quite right too.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 87:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 88:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment represents an additional means of safeguarding the independence of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland from unwarranted interference by the Assembly.
Clause 62(2) was amended in Committee to provide explicitly that the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland should not be subject to the direction or control of the Assembly except as regards the preparation of accounts. That establishes the principle. All this amendment does is to buttress it. The Assembly pays the Comptroller and Auditor General directly and sets the level of his salary annually. We tried to move away from the annual salary setting but for technical reasons were unable to do so. But the Comptroller and Auditor General's salary is subject to a statutory upper limit, which provides a degree of protection from the Assembly's using it to manipulate him. The amendment acts on the opposite end of the spectrum, to prevent the Assembly from undermining the Comptroller and Auditor General's independence by threatening a reduction in salary.
It is not a major provision, but I hope it will be a successful one. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 89:
Page 31, line 3, after ("Minister") insert ("or Northern Ireland department").
Page 31, line 8, after ("of") insert ("an Act of the Assembly or other").
Page 31, line 9, at end insert--
("( ) The Assembly shall not have power under Article 4(1) of the Audit (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 to pass at any time a resolution which reduces the salary payable to a person holding the office of Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland at that time.").
After Clause 62, insert the following new clause--
(" .--(1) Standing orders shall make provision for establishing a committee of members of the Assembly to exercise, in place of the Department of Finance and Personnel, the functions conferred on that Department by Article 6(2) of the Audit (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 (expenses of Northern Ireland Audit Office).
(2) No more than one member of the committee established under subsection (3) of section (Financial control, accounts and audit) may be a member of the committee established under this section.
(3) The committee established under this section shall, in discharging its functions, have regard to the advice of the committee established under that subsection and of the Department of Finance and Personnel.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with this amendment I wish also to speak to Amendment No. 221. Amendment No. 89 provides for the establishment under standing orders of a new Assembly committee which will have the duty of examining the estimate of expenses which is prepared by the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland each year, agreeing any necessary modifications with him and laying the estimate before the Assembly.
This is a function currently exercised by the Department of Finance and Personnel. It would not be appropriate for it to continue doing so once the Assembly has been established. In Westminster the Public Accounts Commission examines the estimates of the National Audit Office under Section 4 of the National Audit Act 1983 and this amendment creates a parallel committee to the commission. Our new committee will be quite separate from the PAC equivalent committee and will be allowed to have only one member drawn from the PAC. This is to ensure that while the new PAC equivalent committee can bring its expertise to assist the new committee it cannot dominate it or replace it. The PAC equivalent committee will have some influence over the Northern Ireland Audit Office, and it is not appropriate for it to have any involvement in the consideration of its expenses if the NIAO is to maintain its independence.
Subsection (1) of the new clause will give the new committee exactly the same duties as the Department of Finance and Personnel exercises at present. Subsection (2) stipulates that not more than one member of the PAC equivalent committee will be able to serve on this new committee for the reasons I have already given. Subsection (3) will require the new committee to take advice for the PAC equivalent committee and the DFP. This is modelled upon the 1983 Act.
This is a small piece of the audit jigsaw and our aim in introducing it is to ensure the absolute integrity and independence of the audit process. Amendment No. 221 is a consequential amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, in rising to my feet I may appear to contradict myself in regard to haste. But it may be worth thinking about the voluntary establishment of this committee in shadow form with a slightly wider remit to educate the members of the Assembly on the realities of financial life. Listening to
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, seeks to achieve, but we have probably already achieved it as regards new Assembly members. A transition programme has been established for some time. That ensures that Assembly members have a chance to learn about the functions of all the Northern Ireland departments so that they get a feel for the work in which they will be engaged when they cease to be in shadow form. I am not sure how far we have got with that transition programme, but I am confident that the need for Assembly members fully to understand the financial basis of the work of the Northern Ireland departments and their responsibilities in relation to that is part of the programme and that the noble Lord's amendment is already being achieved without the need for statutory support.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
7 p.m.
Clause 65 [The Commission's functions]:
Lord Archer of Sandwell moved Amendment No. 90:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 90 it may be to your Lordships' convenience to debate also Amendment No. 91 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. I suspect that he and I tabled our respective amendments more or less contemporaneously. Clearly, they are alternatives. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support in relation to my amendment.
Clause 11 requires that a Bill shall be referred to the commission as soon as practicable after it has been introduced into the Assembly. In Clause 65 it is provided that the commission may advise the Assembly whether a Bill is compatible with human rights, either when that Bill is referred to it by the Assembly or when it thinks right to tender unsolicited advice. But there is no obligation on anyone to tell the commission about a draft Bill before it has been introduced into the Assembly.
The difference is of vital importance as anyone who has been a member of an advisory body will recognise. After a Bill has been introduced it is known publicly what it contains. The Executive will be largely committed--as we all are--to what has been put down on paper. The commission will be involved in a public dialogue. While the Bill is in draft the dialogue can be confidential. There will be no need to strike attitudes. No damage has been done to anyone's image or reputation. Therefore, there is an important difference between the two stages.
In Committee noble Lords debated a proposal that all draft Bills should be referred to the commission and that the Assembly should take into account its advice. In replying my noble friend Lord Williams of Mostyn said that it would be wrong to impose on the Assembly a requirement to take the advice into account, particularly since that was not in the agreement. I suspect that we are shadow boxing as to that. It is highly improbable that the Assembly should not even take into account any advice from the commission. But I have taken to heart the words of my noble friend, as I always do. This amendment simply requires that the executive committee shall submit draft Bills to the commission before presenting them to the Assembly. It would not impose a requirement on the Assembly to take account of the advice or any action on the Assembly at all. It therefore does not seek to include something that is not in the agreement. I ask rhetorically: is that not a handsome compromise and also commonsense? I beg to move.
Page 31, line 39, at end insert--
("( ) The Executive Committee shall refer in draft to the Commission all Bills which it intends to introduce in the Assembly.
( ) The Commission may advise the Executive Committee whether a proposed Bill is compatible with human rights.
( ) The Executive Committee shall take any such advice into account when considering the proposed Bill.
( ) The Commission may make public its advice.").
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