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Lord Dubs moved Amendments Nos. 199 to 220:
Page 69, line 22, at beginning insert ("a question").
Page 69, line 24, at beginning insert ("a question").
Page 69, line 25, at end insert--
("( ) a question whether a Minister or Northern Ireland department has failed to comply with any of the Convention rights, any obligation under Community law or any order under section 25 so far as relating to such an obligation; or
( ) any question arising under this Act about excepted or reserved matters.").
Page 69, leave out lines 26 and 27.
Page 69, line 38, after ("General") insert ("or the Attorney General").
Page 69, line 38, at end insert--
("( ) The First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly may defend any such proceedings.").
Page 70, line 3, leave out ("for Northern Ireland (unless he") and insert (", the Attorney General for Northern Ireland, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister (unless the person to whom the notice would be given").
Page 70, line 5, leave out from beginning to ("may") in line 6 and insert ("A person to whom notice is given in pursuance of paragraph 5").
Page 70, line 31, leave out ("or the Attorney General for Northern Ireland").
Page 70, line 32, at end insert--
("( ) The Attorney General for Northern Ireland or the First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly may defend any such proceedings.").
Page 70, line 37, leave out ("General and") and insert ("General,").
Page 70, line 38, after ("Ireland") insert (", the First Minister and the deputy First Minister").
Page 71, line 33, leave out ("Lord Advocate or the Attorney General for Northern Ireland") and insert ("Advocate General for Scotland").
Page 71, line 34, at end insert--
("( ) The Attorney General for Northern Ireland or the First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly may defend any such proceedings.").
Page 71, leave out lines 38 to 40 and insert--
("23. Intimation of any devolution issue which arises in any proceedings before a court or tribunal shall be given to the Advocate General for Scotland, the Attorney General for Northern Ireland, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister (unless the person to whom the intimation would be given is a party to the proceedings.").
Page 71, line 41, leave out from beginning to ("may") in line 42 and insert ("A person to whom intimation is given in pursuance of paragraph 23").
Page 72, line 38, leave out ("for Northern Ireland, the Attorney General or the Lord Advocate") and insert (", the Attorney General for Northern Ireland, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly or the Advocate General for Scotland").
Page 72, line 40, after ("is") insert ("or they are").
Page 72, line 41, leave out ("for Northern Ireland, the Attorney General or the Lord Advocate") and insert (", the Attorney General for Northern Ireland, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly or the Advocate General for Scotland").
Page 73, line 11, at end insert--
35A. The First Minister and the deputy First Minister acting jointly may determine that a Minister or Northern Ireland department specified in the determination may exercise on their behalf, in relation to any proceedings under this Schedule so specified, any power conferred on them by this Schedule.").
Page 73, line 31, leave out ("intimation or notice") and insert ("notice or intimation").
Page 73, line 31, at end insert--
37A.--(1) Sub-paragraph (3) applies where a devolution issue arises in proceedings against a person ("the defendant") for an offence and the issue is referred to the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland under paragraph 7.
(2) Sub-paragraphs (3) and (4) apply where such an issue arises in such proceedings and--
(a) the issue is referred by the Court to the Judicial Committee under paragraph 9 or 33; or
(b) the issue is determined by the Court under paragraph 7 and--
(i) an appeal to the Committee against the determination is brought under paragraph 10; or
(ii) an application for leave to bring such an appeal is made to the Court under that paragraph.
(3) The Court may, if it thinks fit, on the application of the defendant, admit him to bail pending the determination of the reference, appeal or application.
(4) The Court may at any time when it appears to the Court--
(a) that it is desirable in the interests of justice that the defendant should have legal aid; and
(b) that he has not sufficient means to obtain that aid,
assign to him a solicitor and counsel, or counsel only, in the reference, appeal or application.
(5) If, on a question of granting a person free legal aid under sub-paragraph (4), there is a doubt--
(a) whether it is desirable in the interests of justice that he should have legal aid; or
(b) whether he has sufficient means to obtain that aid,
the doubt shall be resolved in favour of granting him free legal aid.
(6) The fees of any counsel, and the expenses and fees of any solicitor, assigned to a person under sub-paragraph (4) shall be defrayed, up to an amount allowed by the Master (Taxing Office), by the Lord Chancellor out of money provided by Parliament.
37B. Where a devolution issue arises as mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 37A and--
(a) the issue is referred to the Judicial Committee under paragraph 9 or 33; or
(b) the issue is determined by the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland under paragraph 7 and--
(i) an appeal to the Committee against the determination is brought under paragraph 10; or
(ii) an application for special leave to bring such an appeal is made to the Committee under that paragraph,
sub-paragraphs (3) to (6) of paragraph 37A shall apply as if the references to the Court were references to the Committee.").
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 14 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 221:
Page 79, line 6, at end insert--
. In Article 6(2) of the Audit (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 (expenses and accounts of Northern Ireland Audit Office)--
(a) for "the Department", in the first place where it occurs, substitute "the committee established under section (Expenses of Northern Ireland Audit Office) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998"; and
(b) for "the Department", in the second place where it occurs, substitute "that committee".").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, before Amendment No. 222 is moved, I have to inform the House that if it is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 223 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs.
Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 222:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, we have now moved on to the part of Schedule 14 dealing with the Official Secrets Act. Paragraph 8 applies the Official Secrets Act to Northern Ireland Ministers. The provision is necessary, not only in a general sense but particularly because of the negotiations in which they will be involved with the European Union and so on, as we discussed at earlier stages.
I have proposed a relatively modest amendment. It brings the terms of this Bill into line with the equivalent provision in the Scotland Bill. The drafting of my amendments follows that of the Scotland Bill with the necessary adjustments.
If I have understood matters correctly, the amendment would have three effects. First, Northern Ireland Ministers would be defined for this purpose as Crown servants. Under the Bill as presently drafted they are neatly not defined as Crown servants, although Scottish Ministers, United Kingdom Ministers, etc., are. It seems better that they should be placed on the same basis as Ministers from other parts or the United Kingdom.
The second effect of my amendment is to bring junior Ministers under the Official Secrets Act. It has exactly the same purpose as government Amendment No. 223. We are at one over this matter. A provision for junior Ministers having been inserted into the Bill, it is obviously right to do this.
The third effect is that contractors to the Northern Ireland Executive will be brought within the Official Secrets Act, just as contractors are in Great Britain or for that matter in Northern Ireland at present. That is important. Many government matters, including sensitive matters, are delegated these days by government to agencies of one kind or another. It seems appropriate that they should be covered by the same rules as would be the case if they were being carried out by civil servants or others within the government machine.
For all those reasons, I thought that the drafting proposed in Amendment No. 222 might commend itself to the Government as being a slightly more desirable version. I am extremely cautious about taking on Parliamentary Counsel at their own game by trying to re-draft this, just like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Archer. I have even more reason to be cautious about it than he has. At the same time, we have a duty to put forward these matters when we can. I beg to move.
Page 79, line 44, leave out from beginning to end of line 1 on page 80 and insert--
("(2) For subsection (1)(b) substitute--
"(b) a Minister within the meaning of section 20(3) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 or a junior Minister appointed under section 17 of that Act;"").
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