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Lord Holme of Cheltenham: My Lords, I reinforce the point made by the noble Lord. Page 55, line 26 makes quite clear that Acts of the Assembly are included in the Northern Ireland legislation. Therefore, this is an issue of redundancy that we are seeking to "clean up".
I support Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 most warmly. It is helpful to obtain for the Comptroller and Auditor General maximum independence from the Assembly. In that context I do not mind the somewhat high test of two-thirds of the Members rather than two-thirds of those present. If anything, that establishes an even higher standard of non-interference.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I am grateful for the support for some of the amendments. Perhaps I may clarify the position as regards Amendment No. 7. The amendment is necessary because paragraph 22(e) of Schedule 2 would otherwise prevent the Assembly from legislating on the matter. This interacts with paragraph 22 of Schedule 2. I think that it is necessary and that it clarifies the position. I hope that that is acceptable to the House.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 8:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 9:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 69 [The Commission's functions]:
Clause 71 [Restrictions on application of rights]:
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 11:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 11 to 13 in Clause 71 are technical amendments which ensure that the human rights commission can bring proceedings involving non-ECHR issues. The final amendment provides that the Advocate General for
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, these amendments all seem unobjectionable and welcome. However, perhaps the Minister can clarify one matter on Amendment No. 14 which adds the Advocate General for Scotland to the list of exempted persons. We wonder why the Government are not also adding the human rights commission and the equality commission to this list. It would seem to us perfectly right in principle to do so. I should be grateful if that could be clarified.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I think I have understood the noble Lord's point correctly. We shall shortly be bringing forward the Fair Employment and Treatment Order to give effect to further aspects of the White Paper Partnership for Change. Among other things, the order will extend the protections available under the fair employment legislation in Northern Ireland to cover the provision of goods, facilities and services. I think that that is the point the noble Lord makes.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I am dealing with Amendment No. 14 which inserts the words:
I hope that I have clarified my question. The reason it is important is that if we are to set up these new commissions, we need to use their skill and expertise to good advantage in the public interest. The matter should not be left only to Law Officers, it seems to me. The commissions themselves should have that strategic role and therefore should be exempt from the victim test in order to bring those proceedings.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I seem to remember that we discussed this in detail at earlier stages of the Bill. I am not sure that I am able to go into the same detail now as I did then. The point at issue is that the Law Officers need to be able to bring devolution proceedings, but in line with the policy to which Parliament has agreed in relation to the Human Rights Act, only victims should be able to bring ECHR cases. That is the point.
As regards the noble Lord's further points, we exhausted them in earlier debates on the Bill.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 12:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 13:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 14:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 75 [Statutory duty on public authorities]:
Lord Dubs moved Amendment No. 15:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 15 is a matter of drafting. It concerns Clause 75 which deals with statutory equality duties. It brings Clause 75(2) into line with Clause 75(1) in making clear that it bites on public authorities in carrying out their functions relating to Northern Ireland. We are not of course seeking to regulate in the Bill what an authority with a remit extending elsewhere in the United Kingdom does outside Northern Ireland.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 76 [Discrimination by public authorities]:
Lord Lester of Herne Hill moved Amendment No. 16:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to seek clarification on an issue which may be important or may turn out to be trivial. Clause 76(1) makes it unlawful,
The problem arises because of case law. Unless it is made clear in Clause 76, it may be construed not to include functions relating to the provision of goods, facilities or services to the public or a section of the public. In earlier debates, the Minister indicated, as he did a few moments ago, that it is the Government's intention by Order in Council to plug the gap by amending the fair employment legislation. Speaking for myself, I do not understand why that is the chosen method, or whether it will fill the gap. Clause 76 is a constitutional guarantee embodied in the Northern Ireland Bill. It applies to the functions of a public authority relating to Northern Ireland right across the board.
I shall be grateful if the Minister can make clear whether the proposed amendment by Order in Council to the fair employment Act would have the same effect
On the other hand, if there is any gap between my amendment and what the Government intend, speaking again for myself, I should much prefer the Northern Ireland Bill to spell out on its face that it is unlawful for a public authority to discriminate on religious grounds where it is providing goods, facilities or services to the public or a section of the public in Northern Ireland. Otherwise there would be a serious gap in the protection given to the people of Northern Ireland against discrimination by public authorities. I beg to move.
Page 32, line 14, at end insert--
("( ) Persons (other than the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland) charged with the exercise of any function under subsection (2) or other like function conferred by Northern Ireland legislation shall not, in the exercise of that or any ancillary function, be subject to the direction or control of any Minister or Northern Ireland department or of the Assembly.").
Page 33, line 29, at end insert--
("( ) A recommendation shall not be made to Her Majesty for the removal from office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland unless--
(a) the Assembly so resolves; and
(b) the resolution is passed with the support of a number of members of the Assembly which equals or exceeds two thirds of the total number of seats in the Assembly.").
Page 36, line 20, after ("tribunal") insert ("on the ground that any legislation or act is incompatible with the Convention rights").
8.15 p.m.
"the Advocate General for Scotland".
The amendment concerns the exemption to the victim test in Clause 71 so as to enable the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland and the Lord Advocate to bring proceedings notwithstanding that they are not victims of breaches of convention rights. My point is that that has to be done, quite sensibly, because these are all Law Officers who are in a position, in the public interest, to seek to ensure compliance with convention rights and obligations. My question to the Minister is why one would not include the human rights commission as a law enforcement agency and, to the extent that it is relevant, the equality commission and give them standing to be able to bring strategic enforcement proceedings in the public interest, even though they are not individual victims of breaches of the convention.
Page 36, line 22, leave out ("in respect of an act").
Page 36, line 23, after second ("the") insert ("legislation or").
Page 36, line 26, after ("Ireland") insert (", the Advocate General for Scotland").
Page 38, line 14, leave out ("in Northern Ireland shall in carrying out its functions") and insert ("shall in carrying out its functions relating to Northern Ireland").
Page 38, line 38, after ("Ireland") insert (", including functions relating to the provision of goods, facilities or services to the public or a section of the public,").
"for a public authority carrying out functions relating to Northern Ireland to discriminate ... on the ground of religious belief or political opinion".
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