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House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98)


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Wednesday 22 October 1997

The House met at a quarter-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Alderdice, L.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annan, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Arran, E.
Ashbourne, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Balfour of Inchrye, L.
Barnett, L.
Bath and Wells, Bp.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Bellwin, L.
Beloff, L.
Belstead, L.
Berners, B.
Bethell, L.
Biddulph, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blackburn, Bp.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Braybrooke, L.
Brentford, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Broadbridge, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Buckinghamshire, E.
Burnham, L.
Butterfield, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Caldecote, V.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carew, L.
Carlisle, Bp.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Carter, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chapple, L.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L.
Chichester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleraine, L.
Coleridge, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crawshaw, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cross, V.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dainton, L.
David, B.
Davidson, V.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Desai, L.
Devonport, V.
Dilhorne, V.
Dixon, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donegall, M.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Drogheda, E.
Dubs, L.
Dundonald, E.
Durham, Bp.
Eatwell, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.

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Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Exeter, Bp.
Exmouth, V.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Gainford, L.
Gainsborough, E.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson-Watt, L.
Gisborough, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenamara, L.
Goschen, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Greenhill of Harrow, L.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Grimston of Westbury, L.
Hacking, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Halsbury, E.
Hampton, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardwicke, E.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harrowby, E.
Haskel, L.
Haslam, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayter, L.
Healey, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Hogg, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Hothfield, L.
Howe, E.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Inchyra, L.
Inge, L.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Iveagh, E.
Jeffreys, L.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Judd, L.
Kenilworth, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kilmarnock, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Kitchener, E.
Knollys, V.
Lauderdale, E.
Lawrence, L.
Layton, L.
Leathers, V.
Leicester, Bp.
Leigh, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lincoln, Bp.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Liverpool, Bp.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Long, V.
Longford, E.
Lowry, L.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Luke, L.
MacAndrew, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Melville, V.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monk Bretton, L.
Monkswell, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton, L.
Norwich, Bp.
O’Cathain, B.
Ogmore, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pender, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pike, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Poole, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Pym, L.
Quirk, L.
Radnor, E.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Richard, L.
Ripon, Bp.
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Robertson of Oakridge, L.

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Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Romney, E.
Rowallan, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Warsaw, B.
Sainsbury, L.
Saint Albans, D.
St. Davids, V.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandhurst, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sandys, L.
Savile, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Sempill, L.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Shuttleworth, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwell, Bp.
Stafford, L.
Stallard, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Strange, B.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Sudeley, L.
Suffield, L.
Suffolk and Berkshire, E.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Tenby, V.
Terrington, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurlow, L.
Thurso, V.
Tollemache, L.
Tope, L.
Torphichen, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tweeddale, M.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakefield, Bp.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Waverley, V.
Weatherill, L.
Westbury, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitelaw, V.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchester, Bp.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Winston, L.
Wise, L.
York, Abp.
Young, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester.

1.Lord Davies of Coity—David Garfield Davies Esquire CBE, having been created Baron Davies of Coity, of Penybont in the County of Mid Glamorgan, for life by Letters Patent dated in the forenoon of 1st October 1997 (see appendix 1), was introduced between the Lord Graham of Edmonton and the Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute.
2.Lord Roberts of Conwy—The Right Honourable Sir Ieuan Wyn Pritchard Roberts, Knight, having been created Baron Roberts of Conwy, of Talyfan in the County of Gwynedd, for life by Letters Patent dated in the afternoon of 1st October 1997 (see appendix 2), was introduced between the Lord Gibson-Watt and the Lord Thomas of Gwydir, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute.
3.Lord Cope of Berkeley—The Right Honourable Sir John Ambrose Cope, Knight, having been created Baron Cope of Berkeley, of Berkeley in the County of Gloucestershire, for life by Letters Patent dated in the afternoon of 4th October 1997 (see appendix 3), was introduced between the Lord Marlesford and the Lord Wakeham, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute.

Papers

4.Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Shipping—Final Act of the 1995 Conference of Parties to the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers, 1978;
 (3772)
2.Education—Excellence for All Children—Meeting Special Educational Needs: Government Consultation Document;
 (3785)
3.Law Commission—Report of the Law Commission on Shareholder Remedies;
 (3769)
4.Science and Technology—
(i)Government Response to the 2nd Report of the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee on the EU Framework Programme for European Research and Technological Development;(3787)
(ii)Government Response to the 3rd Report of the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee on the Innovation-Exploitation Barrier.(3786)

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5.Affirmative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:

Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Oil and Chemical Pollution of Fish) Order 1997.

(2509)

6.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Plant Protection Products (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1997, laid under the European Communities Act 1972;
 (2499)
2.Local Government Changes for England (Direct Labour Organisations) (County of Leicestershire and District of Rutland) Order 1997, laid under the Local Government Act 1992;
 (2456)
3.Local Government Act 1988 (Defined Activities) (Exemption) (Chichester District Council and Mole Valley District Council) Order 1997, laid under the Local Government Act 1988.
 (2458)

Public Business

7.Business of the House—It was moved by the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard) that Standing Order 38 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Monday next to enable the motion standing in the name of the Lord Privy Seal to be taken before the Third Reading of the Firearms (Amendment) Bill; the motion was agreed to.
8.Business of the House—It was moved by the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard) that the debates on the motions in the names of the Lord Dean of Harptree and the Viscount Cranborne set down for today shall each be limited to 2½ hours; the motion was agreed to.
9.Saving for retirement (2½-hour debate)—It was moved by the Lord Dean of Harptree that there be laid before the House papers relating to the importance of encouraging saving, with particular reference to saving for retirement and the need for stability in the financial markets; after debate, the motion was (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
10.Northern Ireland (2½-hour debate)—It was moved by the Viscount Cranborne that there be laid before the House papers relating to the situation in Northern Ireland; after debate, the motion was (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
11.City of London and electronic commerce—The Lord Renwick asked Her Majesty’s Government what steps they intend to take to ensure that the City of London remains the leading centre for world-wide electronic commerce in the face of United States government initiatives intended to ensure that Internet-based commerce is conducted under US law and to US security standards; after debate, the question was answered by the Lord Haskel.

The House was adjourned at three minutes before nine o’clock
till tomorrow, three o’clock.


APPENDIX 1

ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our trusty and well beloved David Garfield Davies Esquire Commander of Our Most Excellent Order of the British Empire to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Davies of Coity of Penybont in Our County of Mid Glamorgan

And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Davies of Coity to have and to hold unto him for his life

Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy

In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the forenoon of the first day of October in the forty-sixth year of Our Reign

BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEEN’S SIGN MANUAL

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APPENDIX 2

ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our right trusty and well beloved Counsellor Sir Ieuan Wyn Pritchard Roberts Knight to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Roberts of Conwy of Talyfan in Our County of Gwynedd

And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Roberts of Conwy to have and to hold unto him for his life

Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy

In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the first day of October in the forty-sixth year of Our Reign

BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEEN’S SIGN MANUAL


APPENDIX 3

ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our right trusty and well beloved Counsellor Sir John Ambrose Cope Knight to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Cope of Berkely of Berkeley in Our County of Gloucestershire

And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Cope of Berkeley to have and to hold unto him for his life

Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy

In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the fourth day of October in the forty-sixth year of Our Reign

BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEEN’S SIGN MANUAL