House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98) |
Lords Journals Contents Index Alphabetical list of Lords Minutes and Order Papers |
Wednesday 19 November 1997 The House met at a quarter-past two o’clock. The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present: Irvine of Lairg, L.
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Geraint, L. Gibson, L. Gillmore of Thamesfield, L. Gisborough, L. Gladwin of Clee, L. Gladwyn, L. Glasgow, E. Glenamara, L. Glentoran, L. Goodhart, L. Goschen, V. Gould of Potternewton, B. Graham of Edmonton, L. Grantchester, L. Gray, L. Gray of Contin, L. Greenhill of Harrow, L. Greenway, L. Gregson, L. Grey, E. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Grimston of Westbury, L. Hacking, L. Haddington, E. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. Hampton, L. Hamwee, B. Hankey, L. Harding of Petherton, L. Hardwicke, E. Hardy of Wath, L. Harmar-Nicholls, L. Harris of Greenwich, L. Harris of High Cross, L. Harrowby, E. Haskel, L. Hayhoe, L. Hayman, B. Healey, L. Henderson of Brompton, L. Henley, L. Higgins, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Hoffmann, L. Hogg of Cumbernauld, L. Holderness, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. HolmPatrick, L. Home, E. Hooper, B. Hooson, L. Howe, E. Howie of Troon, L. Hoyle, L. Hughes, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Huntingdon, E. Hutchinson of Lullington, L. Hylton-Foster, B. Ilchester, E. Inchcape, E. Inchyra, L. Inglewood, L. Ironside, L. Islwyn, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Jeffreys, L. |
Jeger, B. Jenkin of Roding, L. Jenkins of Hillhead, L. Jenkins of Putney, L. Johnston of Rockport, L. Jopling, L. Judd, L. Kenilworth, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Kennet, L. Kilbracken, L. Kilmarnock, L. Kimball, L. Kingsland, L. Kinloss, Ly. Kinnoull, E. Kintore, E. Kirkwood, L. Knollys, V. Lauderdale, E. Lawrence, L. Leathers, V. Leigh, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Levene of Port Soken, L. Lewis of Newnham, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Liverpool, E. Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E. Lockwood, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. Long, V. Longford, E. Lowry, L. Lucas, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Ludford, B. Luke, L. Lyell, L. McCarthy, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. McFarlane of Llandaff, B. McIntosh of Haringey, L. Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L. MacLehose of Beoch, L. Macleod of Borve, B. McNair, L. McNally, L. Maddock, B. Mar, C. Mar and Kellie, E. Marlesford, L. Marsh, L. Mason of Barnsley, L. Massereene and Ferrard, V. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Merlyn-Rees, L. Merrivale, L. Mersey, V. Meston, L. Miller of Hendon, B. Milne, L. Milverton, L. Mishcon, L. Molloy, L. Molyneaux of Killead, L. Monkswell, L. Monro of Langholm, L. Monson, L. |
Montagu of Beaulieu, L. Montague of Oxford, L. Moore of Wolvercote, L. Moran, L. Morris of Castle Morris, L. Morris of Manchester, L. Mottistone, L. Mountevans, L. Mowbray and Stourton, L. Munster, E. Murray of Epping Forest, L. Napier and Ettrick, L. Napier of Magdâla, L. Naseby, L. Nelson, E. Newall, L. Newby, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, B. Nicol, B. Noel-Buxton, L. Norrie, L. Northesk, E. Norton, L. O’Cathain, B. Ogmore, L. Oliver of Aylmerton, L. Orme, L. Oxfuird, V. Palmer, L. Park of Monmouth, B. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Peel, E. Pender, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Peston, L. Peyton of Yeovil, L. Pike, B. Pilkington of Oxenford, L. Pitkeathley, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Platt of Writtle, B. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Prior, L. Prys-Davies, L. Quirk, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Randall of St. Budeaux, L. Rankeillour, L. Rathcavan, L. Rawlings, B. Razzall, L. Reay, L. Redesdale, L. Rees, L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L. Renton, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Renwick, L. Richard, L. Richardson, L. Ridley, V. Ripon, Bp. Roberts of Conwy, L. Robson of Kiddington, B. Rochester, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Romney, E. Rotherwick, L. |
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Rowallan, L. Runciman of Doxford, V. Sainsbury, L. St. Davids, V. St. John of Bletso, L. St. John of Fawsley, L. Sandwich, E. Sandys, L. Seccombe, B. Sefton of Garston, L. Selborne, E. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Serota, B. Sewel, L. Shannon, E. Sharples, B. Shaughnessy, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. Shepherd, L. Simon, V. Skelmersdale, L. Skidelsky, L. Slim, V. Smith, L. Smith of Clifton, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Southwark, Bp. |
Southwell, Bp. Stallard, L. Stewartby, L. Stodart of Leaston, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Strabolgi, L. Strafford, E. Strathcarron, L. Strathclyde, L. Sudeley, L. Swinfen, L. Taverne, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Taylor of Gryfe, L. Temple of Stowe, E. Tenby, V. Terrington, L. Teynham, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Thomas of Gwydir, L. Thomas of Macclesfield, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Thurlow, L. Thurso, V. Trenchard, V. Trumpington, B. Turner of Camden, B. |
Tweeddale, M. Ullswater, V. Vinson, L. Vivian, L. Waddington, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. Wakeham, L. Walker of Doncaster, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Walpole, L. Walton of Detchant, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Waverley, V. Weatherill, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Westbury, L. Whaddon, L. Wharton, B. Whitelaw, V. Whitty, L. Wilberforce, L. Williams of Crosby, B. Williams of Elvel, L. Winchilsea and Nottingham, E. Young, B. Young of Dartington, L. |
PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.
| 1. | Lord Smith of Clifton—Sir Trevor Arthur Smith, Knight, having been created Baron Smith of Clifton, of Mountsandel in the County of Londonderry, for life by Letters Patent dated in the afternoon of 4th November 1997 (see appendix 1), was introduced between the Lord Razzall and the Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute. |
| 2. | Lord Watson of Invergowrie—Michael Goodall Watson Esquire, having been created Baron Watson of Invergowrie, of Invergowrie in Perth and Kinross, for life by Letters Patent dated in the afternoon of 6th November 1997 (see appendix 2), was introduced between the Baroness Smith of Gilmorehill and the Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute. |
| 3. | Lord Thomas of Macclesfield—Terence James Thomas Esquire CBE, having been created Baron Thomas of Macclesfield, of Prestbury in the County of Cheshire, for life by Letters Patent dated in the forenoon of 5th November 1997 (see appendix 3), was introduced between the Lord Graham of Edmonton and the Lord Carter, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute. |
Judicial Business
| 4. | Christopher Moran Holdings Limited (Respondents) v. Bairstow and another (Petitioners) (lodged 29th May)—The petition of Vivian Murray Bairstow and Nigel Ruddock praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. |
| 5. | Sugar (Petitioner) v. Venables (Respondent) and one other action (lodged 17th November)—The petition of Alan Michael Sugar praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. |
| 6. | Regina v. Westminster City Council and others and the Secretary of State for Health (Appellant) ex parte A, P, M and X (Respondents)— |
| 7. | Regina v. Westminster City Council (Appellants) ex parte A (Respondent)— |
(Conjoined appeals)—
The appeals were set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.
| 8. | Mann and others (Appellants) v. Secretary of State for Employment (Respondent)—The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 3rd December next (the agents for the respondent consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed. |
| 9. | Reckitt & Colman Products Limited (Respondents) v. Richardson-Vicks Inc. (Petitioners) and others—Upon application by the petitioners (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto), it was ordered that the petition be withdrawn and that there be no order as to costs. |
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| 10. | Appeal Committee—The 32nd Report was made; the Appeal Committee reported that they had met and heard Counsel; the Report was agreed to and the following Orders were made— |
State Bank of India (Respondents) v. Sood and others and another (A.P.) (Petitioner)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the costs of the petitioner be taxed in accordance with the Legal Aid Act 1988; and that the respondents’ costs be paid out of the Legal Aid Fund in accordance with section 18 of the Legal Aid Act 1988, such order to be suspended until 17th December to enable the Legal Aid Board to object if they wish.
Propend Finance Pty Limited and others (Petitioners) v. Sing and another (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be refused; and that the petitioners do pay to the respondents the costs of the petition, the amount thereof to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.
Papers
| 11. | Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table: |
| 1. | Monopolies and Mergers—Report on the proposed merger between the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company and Stena Line AB; |
| (3664) |
| 2. | Investment Protection—Agreement between the United Kingdom and Tonga for the Promotion and Protection of Investments. |
| (3800) |
| 12. | Affirmative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table: |
| 1. | Mink Keeping Order 1997; |
| (—) |
| 2. | Draft European Communities (Immunities and Privileges of the European Police Office) Order 1997; |
| 3. | Draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (European Police Office) Order 1997; |
| 4. | Draft OSPAR Commission (Immunities and Privileges) Order 1997. |
| 13. | Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table: |
| 1. (i) | Plant Protection Products (Basic Conditions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1997— | (—) |
| (ii) | Control of Pesticides (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1997— | (—) |
| laid under the Northern Ireland Act 1974; |
| 2. | Education (Individual Pupils’ Achievements) (Information) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 1997, laid under the Education Act 1996. |
| (2709) |
| 14. | Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table: |
| 1. | Accounts for 1996–97 of the English National Board for Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Nurses, Midwives and Health Visitors Act 1997; |
| 2. | Report and Accounts for 1996–97 of the Rural Development Commission, laid under the Miscellaneous Financial Provisions Act 1983. |
| 15. | Instrument coming into operation before being laid—The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that he had received, under the proviso to section 4(1) of the Statutory Instruments Act 1946, notification that the following instrument had come into operation before being laid before Parliament, with an explanation thereof; the notification and explanation were ordered to lie on the Table: |
Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Oil and Chemical Pollution of Fish) Order 1997 (Partial Revocation) Order 1997.
(2735)
Select Committee Report
| 16. | Procedure of the House—The 2nd Report from the Select Committee was made; it was ordered that the Report be printed (see appendix 4). (HL Paper 38) |
Public Business
| 17. | Constitutional change: Cross-party co-operation—It was moved by the Lord Jenkins of Hillhead that there be laid before the House papers relating to the value of cross-party co-operation on major national issues such as constitutional change and Britain’s relations with Europe; after debate, the motion was (by leave of the House) withdrawn. |
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| 18. | Organ transplants—The Lord Norrie asked Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to improve the care of patients awaiting an organ transplant and what steps they are taking to encourage an increase in organ donation; after debate, the question was answered by the Baroness Jay of Paddington. |
The House was adjourned at three minutes before eight o’clock
till tomorrow, three o’clock.
APPENDIX 1
ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our trusty and well beloved Sir Trevor Arthur Smith Knight to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Smith of Clifton of Mountsandel in Our County of Londonderry
And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Smith of Clifton to have and to hold unto him for his life
Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy
In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the fourth day of November in the forty-sixth year of Our Reign
BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEEN’S SIGN MANUAL
APPENDIX 2
ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our trusty and well beloved Michael Goodall Watson Esquire to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Watson of Invergowrie of Invergowrie in Perth and Kinross
And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Watson of Invergowrie to have and to hold unto him for his life
Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy
In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the sixth day of November in the forty-sixth year of Our Reign
BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEEN’S SIGN MANUAL
APPENDIX 3
ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our trusty and well beloved Terence James Thomas Esquire Commander of Our Most Excellent Order of the British Empire to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Thomas of Macclesfield of Prestbury in Our County of Cheshire
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And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Thomas of Macclesfield to have and to hold unto him for his life
Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy
In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the forenoon of the fifth day of November in the forty-sixth year of Our Reign
BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEEN’S SIGN MANUAL
APPENDIX 4
Second Report from the Select Committee
on Procedure of the House
Wednesday 19 November 1997
By the Select Comittee on the Procedure of the House
Order to Report:
1. CARRY-OVER OF BILLS
The Committee considered a proposal made by the Commons Modernisation Committee1, and endorsed by the House of Commons2, that it should be possible for Government bills to be “carried over” from one parliamentary session to the next in the same way as hybrid and private bills. The Committee accepts that there is a case for the carry-over of some Government bills in certain circumstances. The Committee agreed that the Clerk of the Parliaments, after discussion with the Clerk of the House of Commons, should prepare a memorandum for the Committee, to be considered at a future meeting, in which the practical details and any necessary safeguards are examined.
2. EXPLANATORY NOTES FOR BILLS
The Committee agreed to a proposal for “Explanatory Notes” on bills, which was made by the Commons Modernisation Committee and has been agreed to by the House of Commons3. The Notes will be prepared by the sponsoring Department and will combine in a single document accompanying the bill the material provided at present in the Explanatory Memorandum and the Notes on Clauses, but will extend and improve it. There will also be Explanatory Notes for Acts.The Committee believes that it is desirable that—
— in order to establish that the Explanatory Notes cannot be amended in Parliament, the Notes should make clear that they had been drafted by the sponsoring Department and have not been authorised by Parliament;
— the Explanatory Notes should be neutral in tone and do not try to promote the bill or the policy underlying it;
— the Explanatory Notes should be published separately from the Bill (and the subsequent Act), in order to avoid delay in publishing the Bill, to avoid the bill being too bulky, and to give the public a choice of whether or not to buy the Notes.
3. REPRINTING OF QUESTIONS FOR WRITTEN ANSWER
The Committee considered whether Questions for Written Answer should continue to be printed each day in the Lords Minute until they are answered, up to two weeks after tabling. If Questions were printed and published only when they were new or had been amended, an annual saving of about £80,000 could be made. The Committee recommends that Questions for Written Answer should be published only once, when they are tabled, and only republished if they are altered. A full list of unanswered Questions should be available for consultation in the Minute Room and the Library of the House.
4. ATTENDANCE AT DEBATES AND OTHER CONVENTIONS OF THE HOUSE
The Committee is concerned about the growing number of occasions when Lords who speak in debates do not remain to hear the closing speeches. The Committee wishes to remind Lords of the present guidelines in the Companion that a Lord who is taking part in a debate is expected to attend the greater part of that debate. It is considered discourteous for him not to be present for the opening and winding-up speeches and at least the speeches immediately before and after his own speech. A Lord who becomes aware that he is unlikely to be able to stay until the end of a debate should normally remove his name from the speakers’ list (1st Report 1994-95; 3rd Report 1995-96).
1 First Report 1997-98: The Legislative Process (HC 190).
2 On 13th November 1997.
3 See footnotes 1 and 2.
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The Committee has decided that the advice in the Companion should be strengthened by substituting for the words “A Lord who leaves early cannot expect to be answered by the Minister.” the following:
“Ministers cannot be expected to answer, orally or in writing, points made by a speaker who does not stay to hear the Minister’s closing speech.”
The Committee reminds the House that Lords should remain in their seats and not leave the Chamber during a maiden speech or during the following speaker’s congratulations. Those entering the Chamber are expected to remain by the steps of the Throne or below the Bar.
The Committee noted that the expression “the noble Minister” is increasingly being used instead of the correct form “the noble Lord, the Minister”. The Committee draws the House’s attention to the correct form of address.
5. JOINT COMMITTEE ON STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS: NEW STANDING ORDER
The Committee agreed to a new Standing Order governing the appointment of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments in order to reduce and simplify the motions which have to be moved at the beginning of each session.
6. BROADCASTING COMMITTEE: TRANSFER OF FUNCTIONS
The Committee agreed that the functions of the Broadcasting Committee, which have become largely formal, should be transferred to the Administration and Works Sub-Committee, who already deal with issues of substance relating to broadcasting, and that the Broadcasting Committee should therefore cease to exist.
7. APPLICATION OF THE ROTATION RULE TO THE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY COMMITTEE
The Committee agreed to apply to the Chairman of the Science and Technology Committee the exemption from the rotation rule which allows Sub-Committee Chairmen to serve for three sessions.