House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98)

 Lords Journals
Contents
Index
Alphabetical list of Lords
Minutes and Order Papers

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Monday 6 April 1998

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Annan, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Avebury, L.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Barber, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Belstead, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bethell, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brentford, V.
Bridge of Harwich, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burlison, L.
 Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Cadman, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carew, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L.
Chichester, Bp.
Clancarty, E.
Clanwilliam, E.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleraine, L.
Coleridge, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Cromwell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davidson, V.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
De Freyne, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
 Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Diamond, L.
Digby, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Effingham, E.
Elibank, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ely, M.
Emerton, B.
Erne, E.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Exmouth, V.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Feldman, L.
Fitt, L.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gainford, L.
Gallacher, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenamara, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gormanston, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.

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Gowrie, E.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Hamilton of Dalzell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hankey, L.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardwicke, E.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrowby, E.
Haskel, L.
Haslam, L.
Hattersley, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Hayter, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Henley, L.
Hesketh, L.
Higgins, L.
Holderness, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Ironside, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Jopling, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kennet, L.
Kilmarnock, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Knollys, V.
Lane, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lawrence, L.
Layton, L.
Leathers, V.
Leicester, Bp.
Leigh, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liverpool, E.
 Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Long, V.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Lowry, L.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McCarthy, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
McFarlane of Llandaff, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Manton, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Meston, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Milverton, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monkswell, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mountevans, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Naseby, L.
Nelson, E.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Nicol, B.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
Norwich, Bp.
O’Cathain, B.
Ogmore, L.
Onslow, E.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orme, L.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Oxfuird, V.
 Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pender, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Porter of Luddenham, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rowallan, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. Davids, V.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Savile, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Sharples, B.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Spens, L.
Stallard, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stockton, E.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathcarron, L.

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Strathclyde, L.
Strathcona and Mt. Royal, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tenby, V.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
 Tordoff, L.
Torrington, V.
Trefgarne, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tweeddale, M.
Ullswater, V.
Varley, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Waverley, V.
 Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Westbury, L.
Whaddon, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Wise, L.
Young, B.
Young of Old Scone, B.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Norwich.

1.Leave of Absence—It was ordered that leave of absence be granted to the following Lords for the remainder of this Parliament:

Ingrow, L.
Moyola, L.

Judicial Business

2.Denby (Suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all other Members of Syndicate 700 and Syndicate 701 at Lloyd’s for the years 1984 to 1990 inclusive) (Petitioners) v. English and Scottish Maritime Insurance Company Limited and others (Formerly M. J. Marchant [Sued on his own behalf and on behalf of other Members of Syndicate 282, 283, 284 and 323 for the years 1984 and 1985 inclusive] and others) (Respondents)—The petition of Mark Edmond Denby (Sued on his own behalf and on behalf of all other Members of Syndicate 700 and Syndicate 701 at Lloyd’s for the years 1984 to 1990 inclusive) praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.
3.Scarborough Building Society (Respondents) v. Howes Percival (a firm) (Petitioners)—The petition of Howes Percival (a firm) praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.
4.McFarlane and another (Respondents) v. Tayside Health Board (Appellants) (Scotland)—The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 27th May next (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.
5.Regina v. Powell and another (Appellants) (On Appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—The report of the taxation of the bill of costs of the appeal was made pursuant to Standing Order XII, and was referred to the Appeal Committee by the Clerk of the Parliaments.
6.Regina v. English (Appellant) (On Appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—The report of the taxation of the bill of costs of the appeal was made pursuant to Standing Order XII, and was referred to the Appeal Committee by the Clerk of the Parliaments.
7.Regina v. Brown (Appellant) (On appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—The report on Counsel’s fee note was made pursuant to Standing Order XII, and was referred to the Appeal Committee by the Clerk of the Parliaments.
8.Regina v. Mills (Appellant) (On appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—
9.Regina v. Poole (Appellant) (On appeal from the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division))—

(Consolidated Appeals)—

The report of the taxation of the bill of costs of the appeal was made pursuant to Standing Order XII, and was referred to the Appeal Committee by the Clerk of the Parliaments.

10.Appeal Committee—The following Order was made pursuant to the 51st Report:

Fitzpatrick (A.P.) (Petitioner) v. Sterling Housing Association Limited (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be given, and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 20th April next.

11.Appeal Committee—The following Orders were made pursuant to the 56th Report:

Baltic Insurance Group (Petitioners) v. Jordan Grand Prix Limited and others and Quay Financial Software Limited and others (Respondents) (by counter claim) and one other action—That leave to appeal be given, and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 20th April next.

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Bruton (A.P.) (Petitioner) v. London and Quadrant Housing Trust (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be given, and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 20th April next.

12.Appeal Committee—The following Order was made pursuant to the 57th Report:

Barry (Petitioner) v. Midland Bank Plc (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be given, and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 20th April next.

13.Appeal Committee—The 67th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made:

In re Launder (Petitioner) (application for a writ of Habeas Corpus)—That leave to appeal be refused; that the respondents be at liberty to apply for their costs in accordance with direction 6.1(e) and if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Papers

14.Command Papers—The following papers, having been presented to the House by command of Her Majesty on the dates shown, were ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Finance—
(i)Statistical Analyses for 1998–99 of Public Expenditure; (3rd April)(3901)
(ii)The Government’s Expenditure Plans for 1998–99 and Net Payments to European Community Institutions; (3rd April)(3917)
(iii)Department of Health: the Government’s Expenditure Plans for 1998–99 and Report for 1998; (3rd April)(3912)
(iv)Department for Education and Employment: the Government’s Expenditure Plans for 1998–99 and Report for 1998; (3rd April)(3910)
(v)Department for Culture, Media and Sport: the Government’s Expenditure Plans for 1998–99 and Report for 1998; (3rd April)(3911)
(vi)Trade and Industry: the Government’s Expenditure Plans for 1998–99 and Report for 1998; (6th April)(3905)
(vii)Home Office: the Government’s Expenditure Plans for 1998–99 and Report for 1998; (6th April)(3908)
(viii)Inland Revenue: the Government’s Expenditure Plans for 1998–99 and Report for 1998; (6th April)(3919)
(ix)HM Customs & Excise: the Government’s Expenditure Plans for 1998–99 and Report for 1998. (6th April)(3918)
15.Statutory Instruments (Standing Order 68)—The following negative instruments, having been laid before the House on 3rd April, were ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Financial Assistance for Environmental Purposes (No. 2) Order 1998, laid under the Environmental Protection Act 1990;
 (946)
2.Proceeds of Crime (Countries and Territories designated under the Criminal Justice Act 1988) Order (Northern Ireland) 1998, laid under the Proceeds of Crime (Northern Ireland) Order 1996;
 (–––)
3.Fertilisers (Mammalian Meat and Bone Meal) Regulations 1998, laid under the Agriculture Act 1970;
 (954)
4.Fertilisers (Mammalian Meat and Bone Meal) (Conditions of Manufacture) Regulations 1998, laid under the European Communities Act 1972.
 (955)
16.Affirmative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table:

Draft Contracting Out (Functions relating to National Savings) Order 1998.

17.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Local Government Staff Commission (England) (Winding Up) Order 1998, laid under the Local Government Act 1992;
 (898)
2.Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 (Notice of Processions) (Exceptions) Order 1998, laid under the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998;
 (956)
3.Special Trustees for University College Hospital (Transfer of Trust Property) Order 1998, laid under the National Health Service Act 1977.
 (897)
18.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Statements of Guarantee given by the Secretary of State for Health on loans proposed to be raised by:
(i)Fosse Health NHS Trust—

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(ii)Merton & Sutton Community NHS Trust—
(iii)Lifecare NHS Trust—
(iv)Weston Area Health NHS Trust—
(v)Bath Mental Health Care NHS Trust—
laid under the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990;
2.Report for 1995–96 on Agricultural Marketing Schemes, laid under the Agricultural Marketing Act 1958.

Private Business

19.Tamar Bridge Bill—The Examiner’s certificate that no further standing order is applicable was ordered to lie on the Table.

Public Business

20.Criminal Procedure (Intermediate Diets) (Scotland) Bill—A bill to amend, with retrospective effect, the law in relation to intermediate diets in summary criminal proceedings in Scotland, having been brought from the Commons on Friday last and printed pursuant to Standing Order 48, was read a first time. (HL Bill 102)
21.Business of the House—It was moved by the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard) that Standing Order 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with to enable the Criminal Procedure (Intermediate Diets) (Scotland) Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages tomorrow; the motion was agreed to.
22.Business Improvement Districts Bill [HL]—The bill was read a third time; a privilege amendment was agreed to; then the bill was passed and sent to the Commons.
23.Electricity Generation Bill [HL]—The bill was read a third time and passed and sent to the Commons.
24.Social Security Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; the question that a clause stand part of the bill was agreed to (see division list); the question that certain clauses stand part of the bill were negatived; the House was resumed and the bill was reported with amendments; it was ordered that the bill be printed as amended. (HL Bill 103)
25.Merchant Shipping (Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims) (Amendment) Order 1998—
26.Hovercraft (Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims (Amendment)) Order 1998—
27.Hovercraft (Application of Enactments) (Amendment) Order 1998—
It was moved by the Baroness Hayman that the draft Orders and Regulation laid before the House on 10th and 17th March be approved en bloc; after debate, the motion was agreed to.
28.Trade with the former Soviet Union—The Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede asked Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to improve trade relationships between the United Kingdom and the countries of the former Soviet Union; after debate, the question was answered by the Lord Haskel.

The House was adjourned at twenty minutes past nine o’clock
till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock.

DIVISION

SOCIAL SECURITY BILL

On question, whether Clause 70 stand part of the bill, the Committee divided:

Contents.............121

Not-Contents.............38

CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ailsa, M.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Biffen, L.
 Blackstone, B.
Blackwell, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
 Cadman, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V.

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David, B.
Davidson, V.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenamara, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Higgins, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
 Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kennet, L.
Leathers, V.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
Mallalieu, B.
Manton, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Milverton, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Nelson, E.
Nicol, B.
O’Cathain, B.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Orme, L.
Palmer, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plumb, L.
 Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rowallan, L.
Savile, L.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Waddington, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Avebury, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Calverley, L.
Carlisle, E.
Dholakia, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Falkland, V.
Goodhart, L.
Grey, E.
Hamwee, B.
Hayhoe, L.
 Hooson, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Layton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Ludford, B.
Lyell, L.
Maddock, B. [Teller]
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Meston, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Razzall, L.
Rochester, L.
 Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E. [Teller]
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stockton, E.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.