House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98)

Previous Next Page 772 1997-98 Volume 231       Thursday 30 April 1998 The House met at two o’clock. The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present: Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor) Ackner, L. Acton, L. Addington, L. Addison, V. Ailesbury, M. Ailsa, M. Aldenham, L. Aldington, L. Alexander of Tunis, E. Allen of Abbeydale, L. Allenby of Megiddo, V. Ampthill, L. Anelay of St. Johns, B. Annaly, L. Annan, L. Archer of Sandwell, L. Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L. Arran, E. Ashbourne, L. Ashley of Stoke, L. Astor of Hever, L. Attlee, E. Avebury, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Balfour, E. Barnett, L. Bath and Wells, Bp. Beaumont of Whitley, L. Belhaven and Stenton, L. Beloff, L. Berkeley, L. Berners, B. Biddulph, L. Birdwood, L. Blackburn, Bp. Blackstone, B. Blaker, L. Blatch, B. Bledisloe, V. Blyth, L. Boardman, L. Borrie, L. Boston of Faversham, L. Bowness, L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Brentford, V. Bridgeman, V. Brightman, L. Brigstocke, B. Broadbridge, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Brookeborough, V. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Bruce of Donington, L. Burlison, L. Burnham, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. Butterworth, L. Byford, B. Cadman, L. Callaghan of Cardiff, L. Campbell of Alloway, L. Campbell of Croy, L. Carlisle, E. Carnarvon, E. Carnegy of Lour, B. Carnock, L. Carrick, E. Carter, L. Castle of Blackburn, B. Cavendish of Furness, L. Chalfont, L. Chandos, V. Charteris of Amisfield, L. Chelmsford, V. Chesham, L. Chorley, L. Clancarty, E. Clanwilliam, E. Cledwyn of Penrhos, L. Clifford of Chudleigh, L. Clyde, L. Cobbold, L. Cochrane of Cults, L. Cockfield, L. Cocks of Hartcliffe, L. Coleraine, L. Colville of Culross, V. Colwyn, L. Constantine of Stanmore, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Courtown, E. Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L. Cox, B. Craigavon, V. Cranborne, V. Crathorne, L. Crickhowell, L. Cross, V. Cuckney, L. Cullen of Ashbourne, L. Currie of Marylebone, L. Dahrendorf, L. Darcy de Knayth, B. Dartmouth, E. Davidson, V. Davies of Coity, L. Davies of Oldham, L. De Freyne, L. Dean of Beswick, L. Dean of Harptree, L. Denbigh, E. Denham, L. Denton of Wakefield, B. Desai, L. Devonport, V. Dholakia, L. Diamond, L. Dilhorne, V. Dixon, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Donegall, M. Donoughue, L. Dormand of Easington, L. Dubs, L. Dundee, E. Dundonald, E. Dunrossil, V. Eccles of Moulton, B. Eden of Winton, L. Effingham, E. Elibank, L. Elis-Thomas, L. Ellenborough, L. Elles, B. Elliott of Morpeth, L. Elton, L. Erroll, E. Erroll of Hale, L. Evans of Parkside, L. Exmouth, V. Ezra, L. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Falkland, V. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Fitt, L. Flather, B. Fookes, B. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Freyberg, L. Gainford, L. Gainsborough, E. Gallacher, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Geraint, L. Gerard, L. Gilbert, L. Gisborough, L. Gladwin of Clee, L. Gladwyn, L. Glenarthur, L. Glentoran, L. Goodhart, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Gormanston, V. Gould of Potternewton, B. Gowrie, E. Graham of Edmonton, L. Gray of Contin, L. Greenhill of Harrow, L. Greenway, L. Grenfell, L. Grey, E. Hacking, L. Halsbury, E. Hambro, L. Page 773 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top Hamilton of Dalzell, L. Hankey, L. Hanworth, V. Hardie, L. Harding of Petherton, L. Hardwicke, E. Hardy of Wath, L. Harmar-Nicholls, L. Harmsworth, L. Harris of Greenwich, L. Harrowby, E. Haskel, L. Hattersley, L. Hayman, B. Hayter, L. Henderson of Brompton, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Hindlip, L. Hoffmann, L. Hogg of Cumbernauld, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Holme of Cheltenham, L. HolmPatrick, L. Home, E. Hooper, B. Hooson, L. Hothfield, L. Howe, E. Howie of Troon, L. Hoyle, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Hunt of Tanworth, L. Hurd of Westwell, L. Hussey of North Bradley, L. Hutton, L. Hylton-Foster, B. Iddesleigh, E. Ilchester, E. Inglewood, L. Ironside, L. Islwyn, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Jeger, B. Jenkins of Hillhead, L. Jenkins of Putney, L. Jopling, L. Judd, L. Kelvedon, L. Kenilworth, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Kennet, L. Kilbracken, L. Kilmarnock, L. Kilpatrick of Kincraig, L. Kimball, L. Kingsland, L. Kinloss, Ly. Kinnoull, E. Kirkhill, L. Knight of Collingtree, B. Knights, L. Knollys, V. Laing of Dunphail, L. Lane, L. Lane of Horsell, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Lauderdale, E. Lawrence, L. Layton, L. Leathers, V. Leigh, L. Levy, L. Lincoln, Bp. Lindsey and Abingdon, E. Liverpool, E. Lockwood, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. Long, V. Longford, E. Lovell-Davis, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Ludford, B. Luke, L. Lyell, L. Lytton, E. McIntosh of Haringey, L. Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L. Mackay of Drumadoon, L. Mackie of Benshie, L. Macleod of Borve, B. McNair, L. McNally, L. Maddock, B. Mallalieu, B. Malmesbury, E. Mancroft, L. Marlesford, L. Marsh, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Mason of Barnsley, L. Massereene and Ferrard, V. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Merlyn-Rees, L. Mersey, V. Methuen, L. Miller of Hendon, B. Milner of Leeds, L. Milverton, L. Minto, E. Mishcon, L. Molyneaux of Killead, L. Monk Bretton, L. Monkswell, L. Monro of Langholm, L. Monson, L. Montagu of Beaulieu, L. Montague of Oxford, L. Montgomery of Alamein, V. Moore of Wolvercote, L. Moran, L. Mottistone, L. Mountevans, L. Mountgarret, V. Mowbray and Stourton, L. Moyne, L. Moynihan, L. Munster, E. Murray of Epping Forest, L. Murton of Lindisfarne, L. Napier and Ettrick, L. Napier of Magdâla, L. Nathan, L. Nelson, E. Newall, L. Newby, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, B. Nicol, B. Noel-Buxton, L. Norfolk, D. Norrie, L. Northesk, E. Norton, L. Norwich, Bp. O’Cathain, B. Ogmore, L. Onslow, E. Onslow of Woking, L. Orme, L. Orr-Ewing, L. Oxfuird, V. Palmer, L. Park of Monmouth, B. Paul, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Pender, L. Perry of Walton, L. Perth, E. Peston, L. Peyton of Yeovil, L. Pilkington of Oxenford, L. Pitkeathley, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Platt of Writtle, B. Plummer of St. Marylebone, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Prys-Davies, L. Puttnam, L. Quinton, L. Quirk, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Randall of St. Budeaux, L. Rankeillour, L. Rathcavan, L. Rawlings, B. Rawlinson of Ewell, L. Razzall, L. Rea, L. Reay, L. Redesdale, L. Rees, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Renton, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Renwick, L. Renwick of Clifton, L. Richard, L. Richardson, L. Rix, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Rochester, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Rogers of Riverside, L. Romney, E. Rotherwick, L. Rowallan, L. Runcie, L. Russell, E. Ryder of Wensum, L. Sainsbury, L. Sainsbury of Turville, L. St. John of Bletso, L. St. John of Fawsley, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Sandberg, L. Page 774 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top Sandys, L. Seccombe, B. Selborne, E. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Serota, B. Shannon, E. Shaughnessy, L. Shepherd, L. Sheppard of Liverpool, L. Simon, V. Simon of Glaisdale, L. Simon of Highbury, L. Skelmersdale, L. Skidelsky, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L. Stallard, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Steyn, L. Stockton, E. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Strabolgi, L. Strange, B. Strathcarron, L. Strathclyde, L. Sudeley, L. Suffolk and Berkshire, E. Swansea, L. Swinfen, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Taverne, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Taylor of Gryfe, L. Temple of Stowe, E. Tenby, V. Teviot, L. Teynham, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Thomas of Macclesfield, L. Thomas of Swynnerton, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Thomson of Monifieth, L. Thurlow, L. Thurso, V. Tope, L. Torrington, V. Trefgarne, L. Trenchard, V. Turner of Camden, B. Tweeddale, M. Vivian, L. Waddington, L. Wakeham, L. Walker of Doncaster, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Walpole, L. Walton of Detchant, L. Warnock, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Waverley, V. Weatherill, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Westbury, L. Whaddon, L. Wharton, B. Whitty, L. Wigoder, L. Wilberforce, L. Wilcox, B. Williams of Elvel, L. Willoughby de Broke, L. Winchilsea and Nottingham, E. Winston, L. Wise, L. Wright of Richmond, L. Young, B. Young of Old Scone, B. PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Lincoln. Judicial Business 1. Williams and another (A.P.) (Respondents) v. Natural Life Health Foods Limited and Mistlin (Appellant)—The Report from the Appellate Committee was agreed to; it was ordered and adjudged that the Order of the Court of Appeal of 5th December 1996 and the Order of Mr. Justice Langley of 1st December 1995 be set aside save as to legal aid taxation; that there be no order for costs before Mr. Justice Langley; that the costs of the appellant in the Court of Appeal and in this House be paid out of the Legal Aid Fund in accordance with section 18 of the Legal Aid Act 1988, such order to be suspended for four weeks to allow the Legal Aid Board to object if they wish; that the amount of the costs in this House be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties; and that the costs of the respondents in this House be taxed in accordance with the Legal Aid Act 1988. 2. MTV Europe (a firm) (Petitioners) v. BMG Records (UK) Limited and others (Respondents)—The petition of MTV Europe (a firm) praying for leave to appeal notwithstanding that the time limited by Standing Order II has expired was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. 3. Appeal Committee—The 69th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made: In re L (by his next friend DF) (Respondent)—That the petition of the Secretary of State for Health that he might be heard or otherwise intervene in the said appeal be allowed. The House was adjourned during pleasure. The House was resumed. Papers 4. Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table: 1. Monopolies and Mergers Commission—Fresenius AG and Caremark Limited: A report on the proposed merger;   (3925) 2. Law Commission (Scotland)—Report of the Scottish Law Commission on Leasehold Casualties.   (3940) 5. Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table: 1. Lands Tribunal (Salaries) Order (Northern Ireland) 1998, laid under the Northern Ireland Act 1974;   (—) 2. Local Authorities (Goods and Services) (Public Bodies) (No. 3) Order 1998, laid under the Local Authorities (Goods and Services) Act 1970;   (1123) 3. National Health Service (Pilot Schemes—Health Service Bodies) Amendment Regulations 1998, laid under the National Health Service (Primary Care) Act 1997;   (1136) Page 775 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top 4. Academic Awards and Distinctions (Queen Margaret College) (Scotland) Order of Council 1998, laid under the Further and Higher Education (Scotland) Act 1992.   (1148) 6. Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table: 1. Report and Accounts for 1997 of the Independent Television Commission, laid under the Broadcasting Act 1990; 2. Accounts for 1996–97 of the House of Commons Members’ Fund, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the House of Commons Members’ Fund Act 1939. Public Business 7. Building Regulations (Energy Rating Information) (Amendment) Bill [HL]—A bill to amend the Building Regulations 1991 and the Building (Approved Inspectors etc.) Regulations 1985 to secure the provision of further information to purchasers and certain other occupiers of dwellings with respect to the energy rating of dwellings; and for connected purposes was presented by the Baroness Nicol, read a first time and ordered to be printed. (HL Bill 110) 8. Business of the House—It was moved by the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard) that Standing Order 38(5) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Wednesday 6th May to allow the Second Reading of the Northern Ireland (Elections) Bill to be taken before the motion in the name of the Lord Geddes; and that Standing Order 44 (No two stages of a bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Thursday 7th May to allow the bill to be taken through its remaining stages that day; the motion was agreed to. 9. Consolidation Bills—It was moved by the Lord Chancellor that the Lord Razzall be appointed a member of the Joint Committee in the place of the Lord Wigoder; and that the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath be added to the Joint Committee; the motion was agreed to. 10. Ceremony of Introduction—It was moved by the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard) that this House take note of the report of the Select Committee on the Ceremony of Introduction (HL Paper 78); after debate, the motion was agreed to. 11. Ceremony of Introduction—It was moved by the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard) that this House agrees with the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Ceremony of Introduction (HL Paper 78) and resolves that they should be implemented forthwith, and that the ceremony of introduction for Lords Spiritual should be altered in line with those recommendations; then it was moved by the Lord Dean of Harptree, as an amendment thereto, to leave out from (“House”) to end and insert (“declines to approve the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Ceremony of Introduction (HL Paper 78) until this House has had the opportunity to consider Her Majesty’s Government’s further proposals for Lords reform.”); the amendment was disagreed to (see division list); then it was moved by the Duke of Norfolk, as a further amendment thereto, after (“78)”) to insert (“, with the exception of the recommendation to exclude Garter King of Arms from the ceremony”); the amendment was agreed to; then the original motion, as amended, was agreed to and it was resolved accordingly. 12. Community Care (Residential Accommodation) Bill—It was moved by the Baroness Pitkeathley that the bill be now read a second time; after debate, the motion was agreed to and the bill was committed to a Committee of the Whole House. 13. Chocolate (ECC Report)—It was moved by the Lord Reay that this House take note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on The EC Chocolate Directive (19th Report, HL Paper 85); after debate, the motion was agreed to. The House was adjourned at eight minutes before nine o’clock to Tuesday next, half-past two o’clock. DIVISION THE CEREMONY OF INTRODUCTION It was moved by the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Richard) that this House agrees with the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Ceremony of Introduction (HL Paper 78) and resolves that they should be implemented forthwith, and that the ceremony of introduction for Lords Spiritual should be altered in line with those recommendations; then it was moved by the Lord Dean of Harptree, as an amendment thereto, to leave out from (“House”) to end and insert (“declines to approve the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Ceremony of Introduction (HL Paper 78) until this House has had the opportunity to consider Her Majesty’s Government’s further proposals for Lords reform.”); which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the House divided: Page 776 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top Contents.............98 Not-Contents.............150 CONTENTS Aldington, L. Anelay of St. Johns, B. Annaly, L. Ashbourne, L. Attlee, E. Blaker, L. Blatch, B. Boardman, L. Bowness, L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Bridgeman, V. Brougham and Vaux, L. Burnham, L. Butterworth, L. Byford, B. Campbell of Alloway, L. Carnock, L. Chalfont, L. Chelmsford, V. Chesham, L. [Teller] Cocks of Hartcliffe, L. Coleraine, L. Colwyn, L. Courtown, E. Cranborne, V. Cuckney, L. Davidson, V. Dean of Harptree, L. Denham, L. Denton of Wakefield, B. Donegall, M. Eccles of Moulton, B. Ellenborough, L. Elles, B. Elliott of Morpeth, L. Gainsborough, E. Glenarthur, L. Gormanston, V. Greenway, L. Halsbury, E. Hambro, L. Hamilton of Dalzell, L. Hooper, B. Howe, E. Iddesleigh, E. Kingsland, L. Knight of Collingtree, B. Lauderdale, E. Lawrence, L. Leigh, L. Long, V. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Mackay of Drumadoon, L. Macleod of Borve, B. Mancroft, L. Marlesford, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Mersey, V. Miller of Hendon, B. Molyneaux of Killead, L. Monk Bretton, L. Monro of Langholm, L. Monson, L. Moore of Wolvercote, L. Mottistone, L. Mowbray and Stourton, L. Munster, E. Murton of Lindisfarne, L. Napier and Ettrick, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Northesk, E. O’Cathain, B. Onslow, E. Onslow of Woking, L. Oxfuird, V. Park of Monmouth, B. Rankeillour, L. Rawlinson of Ewell, L. Reay, L. Rees, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Rotherwick, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. [Teller] Seccombe, B. Skelmersdale, L. Stockton, E. Strange, B. Strathclyde, L. Swansea, L. Temple of Stowe, E. Teviot, L. Thomas of Swynnerton, L. Trefgarne, L. Vivian, L. Waddington, L. Wise, L. Young, B. NOT-CONTENTS Acton, L. Addington, L. Annan, L. Archer of Sandwell, L. Ashley of Stoke, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Barnett, L. Berkeley, L. [Teller] Berners, B. Blackstone, B. Bledisloe, V. Borrie, L. Brightman, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Burlison, L. Carlisle, E. Carnegy of Lour, B. Carrick, E. Carter, L. Castle of Blackburn, B. Chandos, V. Clancarty, E. Cledwyn of Penrhos, L. Clifford of Chudleigh, L. Cobbold, L. Colville of Culross, V. Currie of Marylebone, L. Darcy de Knayth, B. Dartmouth, E. Davies of Coity, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Dholakia, L. Dixon, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Donoughue, L. Dormand of Easington, L. Dubs, L. Elis-Thomas, L. Elton, L. Erroll, E. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Flather, B. Freyberg, L. Gallacher, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Gilbert, L. Goodhart, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Graham of Edmonton, L. Grenfell, L. Hacking, L. Hanworth, V. Hardie, L. Harding of Petherton, L. Hardy of Wath, L. Harris of Greenwich, L. Haskel, L. Hattersley, L. Hayman, B. Henderson of Brompton, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Hoffmann, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Hooson, L. Howie of Troon, L. Hoyle, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Hussey of North Bradley, L. Hylton-Foster, B. Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor) Jay of Paddington, B. Jeger, B. Jenkins of Putney, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Kennet, L. Kilmarnock, L. Kirkhill, L. Lockwood, B. Lovell-Davis, L. Lyell, L. McIntosh of Haringey, L. Mackie of Benshie, L. McNair, L. Page 777 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top Maddock, B. Mallalieu, B. Marsh, L. Massereene and Ferrard, V. Merlyn-Rees, L. Milner of Leeds, L. Mishcon, L. Monkswell, L. Montague of Oxford, L. Mountgarret, V. Murray of Epping Forest, L. Nathan, L. Nicol, B. Norfolk, D. Norton, L. Norwich, Bp. Pitkeathley, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Prys-Davies, L. Puttnam, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Randall of St. Budeaux, L. Rathcavan, L. Rea, L. Redesdale, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Renton, L. Renwick of Clifton, L. Richard, L. (Lord Privy Seal) Rochester, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Rogers of Riverside, L. Runcie, L. Russell, E. Sainsbury of Turville, L. St. John of Bletso, L. St. John of Fawsley, L. Serota, B. Shannon, E. Shepherd, L. Simon, V. Simon of Highbury, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Steel of Aikwood, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Strabolgi, L. Swinfen, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Tenby, V. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Thurlow, L. Thurso, V. Tope, L. [Teller] Turner of Camden, B. Walker of Doncaster, L. Walton of Detchant, L. Warnock, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Weatherill, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Whitty, L. Wilberforce, L. Williams of Elvel, L. Young of Old Scone, B.