House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98) |
Lords Journals Contents Index Alphabetical list of Lords Minutes and Order Papers |
Tuesday 19 May 1998 The House met at half-past two o’clock. The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present: Irvine of Lairg, L.
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Falconer of Thoroton, L. Falkland, V. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Ferrers, E. Fitt, L. Flather, B. Fookes, B. Forteviot, L. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Freyberg, L. Gainford, L. Gainsborough, E. Gallacher, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Geddes, L. Geraint, L. Gilbert, L. Gillmore of Thamesfield, L. Gladwin of Clee, L. Glenamara, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Gormanston, V. Gould of Potternewton, B. Gowrie, E. Graham of Edmonton, L. Grantchester, L. Gray of Contin, L. Greenway, L. Gregson, L. Grenfell, L. Grey, E. Grimston of Westbury, L. Hacking, L. Halsbury, E. Hamilton of Dalzell, L. Hampden, V. Hampton, L. Hamwee, B. Hardie, L. Harding of Petherton, L. Hardwicke, E. Hardy of Wath, L. Harlech, L. Harmar-Nicholls, L. Harmsworth, L. Harrowby, E. Haskel, L. Hastings, L. Hattersley, L. Hayhoe, L. Hayman, B. Hayter, L. Healey, L. Hemphill, L. Henderson of Brompton, L. Henley, L. Hill-Norton, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Holderness, L. Hollick, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Holme of Cheltenham, L. HolmPatrick, L. Home, E. Hooper, B. Hooson, L. Hothfield, L. Howe, E. Howell of Guildford, L. |
Hoyle, L. Hughes, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Hunt of Tanworth, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Hurd of Westwell, L. Hylton, L. Hylton-Foster, B. Ilchester, E. Inchyra, L. Inge, L. Inglewood, L. Ironside, L. Islwyn, L. Jacobs, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Jeffreys, L. Jeger, B. Jenkin of Roding, L. Jenkins of Hillhead, L. Jenkins of Putney, L. Johnston of Rockport, L. Jopling, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Kennet, L. Keyes, L. Kilbracken, L. Kimball, L. Kingsland, L. Kinloss, Ly. Kinnoull, E. Kintore, E. Kirkhill, L. Kirkwood, L. Kitchener, E. Knight of Collingtree, B. Knollys, V. Lane of Horsell, L. Lauderdale, E. Lawrence, L. Layton, L. Leigh, L. Levy, L. Lindsay, E. Lindsey and Abingdon, E. Lockwood, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. London, Bp. Long, V. Lovell-Davis, L. Lowry, L. Lucas, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Ludford, B. Luke, L. Lyell, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. McConnell, L. McIntosh of Haringey, L. Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Mackie of Benshie, L. Mackintosh of Halifax, V. McNair, L. McNally, L. Maddock, B. |
Mallalieu, B. Mancroft, L. Mar, C. Mar and Kellie, E. Marlborough, D. Marlesford, L. Marsh, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Mason of Barnsley, L. Massereene and Ferrard, V. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Merlyn-Rees, L. Merrivale, L. Mersey, V. Meston, L. Middleton, L. Miller of Hendon, B. Milner of Leeds, L. Milverton, L. Mishcon, L. Molloy, L. Molyneaux of Killead, L. Monckton of Brenchley, V. Monkswell, L. Monro of Langholm, L. Monson, L. Montagu of Beaulieu, L. Montague of Oxford, L. Moran, L. Morris of Manchester, L. Mottistone, L. Mountevans, L. Mowbray and Stourton, L. Moyne, L. Moynihan, L. Munster, E. Murton of Lindisfarne, L. Napier and Ettrick, L. Napier of Magdâla, L. Naseby, L. Nelson, E. Newby, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Nicholls of Birkenhead, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, B. Nicol, B. Noel-Buxton, L. Nolan, L. Norfolk, D. Norrie, L. Northbourne, L. Northesk, E. Norton, L. O’Cathain, B. Oliver of Aylmerton, L. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Orme, L. Orr-Ewing, L. Oxford, Bp. Oxfuird, V. Palmer, L. Park of Monmouth, B. Parry, L. Patten, L. Paul, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Pender, L. Perry of Walton, L. Peston, L. Peyton of Yeovil, L. |
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Pike, B. Pilkington of Oxenford, L. Pitkeathley, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Platt of Writtle, B. Prentice, L. Prys-Davies, L. Puttnam, L. Pym, L. Quinton, L. Quirk, L. Radnor, E. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Randall of St. Budeaux, L. Rankeillour, L. Rathcavan, L. Rawlings, B. Rawlinson of Ewell, L. Razzall, L. Rea, L. Reay, L. Redesdale, L. Rees, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L. Rennell, L. Renton, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Renwick, L. Richard, L. Ripon, Bp. Rix, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Roll of Ipsden, L. Romney, E. Rowallan, L. Russell, E. Ryder of Wensum, L. Sainsbury, L. St. John of Bletso, L. St. John of Fawsley, L. Salisbury, Bp. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Sandberg, L. |
Sanderson of Bowden, L. Sandford, L. Sandwich, E. Sandys, L. Savile, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Seccombe, B. Sefton of Garston, L. Selborne, E. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Sempill, L. Serota, B. Sewel, L. Shannon, E. Sharples, B. Shaughnessy, L. Shepherd, L. Shore of Stepney, L. Shuttleworth, L. Simon, V. Simon of Glaisdale, L. Skidelsky, L. Slim, V. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L. Spens, L. Stafford, L. Stair, E. Stallard, L. Stanley of Alderley, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Stewartby, L. Stodart of Leaston, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Stokes, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Strabolgi, L. Strafford, E. Strathcarron, L. Strathclyde, L. Strathcona and Mt. Royal, L. Sudeley, L. Swansea, L. Swinfen, L. |
Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Taylor of Warwick, L. Tenby, V. Teviot, L. Teynham, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Thomas of Gwydir, L. Thomas of Macclesfield, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Thomson of Monifieth, L. Thurlow, L. Tope, L. Trefgarne, L. Trenchard, V. Trumpington, B. Turner of Camden, B. Tweeddale, M. Ullswater, V. Varley, L. Vinson, L. Vivian, L. Waddington, L. Wakefield, Bp. Wakeham, L. Walker of Doncaster, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Walpole, L. Walton of Detchant, L. Warnock, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Weatherill, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Westbury, L. Whaddon, L. Wharton, B. Whitty, L. Wilberforce, L. Wilcox, B. Williams of Elvel, L. Williams of Mostyn, L. Willoughby de Broke, L. Windlesham, L. Wise, L. Wright of Richmond, L. Young, B. |
Judicial Business
| 1. | Regina v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) ex parte Stafford (A.P.) (Appellant) (England)—The appeal of Dennis Stafford was presented and it was ordered that in accordance with Standing Order VI the statement and appendix thereto be lodged on or before 30th June next. |
| 2. | Islam (A.P.) (Appellant) v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent)— |
| 3. | Regina v. Immigration Appeal Tribunal and another (Respondents) ex parte Shah (A.P.) (Appellant)— (Conjoined Appeals)— The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee. |
| 4. | Barclays Bank Plc (Appellants) v. Boulter and Boulter (Respondent)—The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 17th June next (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed. |
| 5. | Christopher Moran Holdings Limited (Respondents) v. Bairstow and another (Appellants)—The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 30th June next (the agents for the respondents consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed. |
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| 6. | Appeal Committee—The following Order was made pursuant to the 56th Report: Curtis (Respondent) v. Chairman of the London Rent Assessment Committee (Petitioner) and others—That leave to appeal be given on condition that the petitioner will not seek to disturb the order for costs below or, if successful on the appeal, will not seek an order for costs in this House; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 2nd June next. |
| 7. | Appeal Committee—The following Orders were made pursuant to the 65th Report: Regina v. Hertfordshire County Council (Respondents) ex parte Green Environmental Industries Limited and another (A.P.) (Petitioner)—That leave to appeal be given, and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 2nd June next. Modahl (A.P.) (Petitioner) v. British Athletic Federation Limited (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be given, and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 2nd June next. |
| 8. | Appeal Committee—The following Orders were made pursuant to the 66th Report: Woods (Respondent) v. Chief Adjudication Officer and another (Petitioners)—That the petition be referred for hearing. Regina v. Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (Petitioners) ex parte Lawrie Plantation Services Limited (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be given, and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 2nd June next. |
Papers
| 9. | Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table: |
| 1. | Law Commission—Report of the Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission on Statute Law Revision; |
| (3939) |
| 2. | Children: |
| (i) Meeting the Childcare Challenge: Government consultation document; | |
| (3959) |
| (ii) Meeting the Childcare Challenge—A Childcare Strategy for Scotland: Government consultation document. | |
| (3958) |
| 10. | Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table: |
| 1. | Education (Individual Performance Information) (Prescribed Bodies and Persons) (Wales) Regulations 1998, laid under the Education Act 1996; |
| (1220) |
| 2. | Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Scotland) Amendment Order 1998, laid under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997. |
| (1226) |
| 11. | Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table: Statements of Guarantee given by the Secretary of State for Health on loans proposed to be raised by: |
| (i) | Thanet Healthcare NHS Trust— |
| (ii) | Royal Surrey County Hospital NHS Trust— laid under the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990. |
Committee Reports
| 12. | Statutory Instruments—The 34th Report from the Joint Committee was made on certain statutory instruments; it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 105) |
| 13. | Procedure of the House—The 3rd Report from the Select Committee was made (see appendix); it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 106) |
| 14. | Delegated Powers and Deregulation—The following reports from the Select Committee were made and ordered to be printed: 20th Report, on the following bills: |
| Regional Development Agencies Bill; |
| Police (Northern Ireland) Bill; |
| Building Regulations (Energy Rating Information) (Amendment) Bill [HL]; |
| Sexual Orientation Discrimination Bill [HL]; |
| Tax Credits (Initial Expenditure) Bill; (HL Paper 107) |
21st Report, on the following draft deregulation order:
| Deregulation (Methylated Spirits Sale by Retail) (Scotland) Order 1998. (HL Paper 108) |
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Public Business
| 15. | School Standards and Framework Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed for a statement; the House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; an amendment was disagreed to (see division list); the House was resumed. |
| 16. | Anglo-Japanese relations—The Viscount Trenchard asked Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to promote relations between the United Kingdom and Japan; after debate, the question was answered by the Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean. |
| 17. | School Standards and Framework Bill—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; the House was resumed after Schedule 3 stood part. |
The House was adjourned at eleven minutes past three o’clock
in the morning of Wednesday 20th May
till later the same day, ten o’clock in the morning for judicial business,
half-past two o’clock in the afternoon for public business.
DIVISION
SCHOOL STANDARDS AND FRAMEWORK BILL
It was moved by the Lord Pilkington of Oxenford, in Clause 6, page 4, line 43, at end to insert—
(“( ) No education development plan prepared under this section shall include proposals to—
(a) discontinue sixth form provision at a particular school; (b) introduce pupils of the opposite sex into any age group or teaching group in a particular school in which that school currently offers single sex education; or (c) eliminate selection by ability, in part or in whole,unless the proposals submitted within the education development plan have previously been accepted by the governing body and parents of the school concerned.”);
which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:
Contents.............53
Not-Contents.............110
CONTENTS
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Annaly, L. Ashbourne, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Belstead, L. Blatch, B. Bridgeman, V. Butterworth, L. Byford, B. [Teller] Cadman, L. Caithness, E. Carnegy of Lour, B. Chesham, L. Coleridge, L. Cross, V. Dundonald, E. Elton, L. Gray of Contin, L. |
Greenway, L. Harlech, L. Harmar-Nicholls, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Inglewood, L. Keyes, L. Lauderdale, E. Lucas, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. McConnell, L. Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L. Mancroft, L. Marlesford, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Mountevans, L. Naseby, L. Noel-Buxton, L. |
Northesk, E. Oxfuird, V. Palmer, L. Patten, L. Pilkington of Oxenford, L. Rankeillour, L. Renton, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Seccombe, B. [Teller] Selkirk of Douglas, L. Sharples, B. Skidelsky, L. Stanley of Alderley, L. Stodart of Leaston, L. Swinfen, L. Thomas of Gwydir, L. Trenchard, V. Young, B. |
NOT-CONTENTS
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Acton, L. Addington, L. Archer of Sandwell, L. Berkeley, L. Blackstone, B. Blease, L. Borrie, L. |
Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Burlison, L. Callaghan of Cardiff, L. Carlisle, E. Carter, L. [Teller] Darcy de Knayth, B. David, B. Davies of Oldham, L. |
Dean of Beswick, L. Dearing, L. Desai, L. Dixon, L. Donoughue, L. Dormand of Easington, L. Eatwell, L. Elis-Thomas, L. Falconer of Thoroton, L. |
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Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Gallacher, L. Geraint, L. Gilbert, L. Gladwin of Clee, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Graham of Edmonton, L. Grantchester, L. Gregson, L. Grenfell, L. Hampton, L. Hamwee, B. Hardie, L. Hardy of Wath, L. Haskel, L. Hayman, B. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Hollick, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Hoyle, L. Hughes, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor) Islwyn, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Jeger, B. Jenkins of Putney, L. |
Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Kilbracken, L. Kirkhill, L. Kirkwood, L. Lockwood, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. Lovell-Davis, L. McIntosh of Haringey, L [Teller] Mackie of Benshie, L. McNair, L. Maddock, B. Mallalieu, B. Mar and Kellie, E. Merlyn-Rees, L. Milner of Leeds, L. Mishcon, L. Molloy, L. Monkswell, L. Montague of Oxford, L. Orme, L. Parry, L. Perry of Walton, L. Peston, L. Pitkeathley, B. Prys-Davies, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Randall of St. Budeaux, L. Razzall, L. |
Rendell of Babergh, B. Richard, L. (Lord Privy Seal) Rix, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Sandberg, L. Sefton of Garston, L. Serota, B. Sewel, L. Shannon, E. Shepherd, L. Simon, V. Slim, V. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Steel of Aikwood, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Thomas of Macclesfield, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Tope, L. Turner of Camden, B. Varley, L. Walker of Doncaster, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Weatherill, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Whaddon, L. Whitty, L. Williams of Elvel, L. Williams of Mostyn, L. |
APPENDIX
Third Report from the Select Committee
on Procedure of the House
Tuesday 19th May 1998
By the Select Committee on the Procedure of the House
Ordered to Report—
1. USE OF QUEEN’S NAME TO INFLUENCE DEBATE
On 27th February, during the second reading debate on the Succession to the Crown Bill, Lord Williams of Mostyn, the Home Office Minister, informed the House that The Queen had no objection to the bill. Several Lords argued that this disclosure was contrary to the rule in Erskine May that the irregular use of The Queen’s name to influence a decision of the House was unconstitutional and inconsistent with the independence of Parliament (p 382). On 2nd March the Leader of the House, after having consulted the clerks, advised the House that on a bill which was so fundamentally personal to The Queen it was only sensible for Her Majesty’s views to be made known to the House. He also said that procedural rules should always be applied with commonsense and with due regard to all the circumstances.
The Committee has considered the exchanges of 27th February and the Leader of the House’s statement of 2nd March.
The Committee believes that Erskine May correctly states the rule, which should continue to be observed by the House. However, the Committee recognises that exceptional circumstances may arise, such as the Succession to the Crown Bill, which make it desirable to depart from the strict application of the rule. The Committee does not recommend that the rule should be regarded as absolute.
2. CARRY-OVER OF BILLS
On 19th November 1997 the Committee considered a proposal made by the Commons Modernisation Committee1, and endorsed by the House of Commons2, that it should be possible for Government bills to be “carried over” from one parliamentary session to the next in the same way as a hybrid and private bills. The Committee accepted that there was a case for the carry-over of some Government bills in certain circumstances; and asked the Clerk of the Parliaments to prepare, with the Clerk of the House of Commons, a memorandum in which the practical details and any necessary safeguards would be examined. The Committee has now considered this memorandum.
1 First Report 1997–98: The Legislative Process (HC 190).
2 On 13th November 1997.
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The Committee recommends that the principle of carry-over should be endorsed by the House and that—
(a) only Government bills should be eligible for carry-over;
(b) carry-over should be restricted to bills which have not yet left the House in which they originated;
(c) the eligibility of bills for carry-over should be settled by informal discussion through the usual channels;
(d) bills should be carried over by ad hoc motions, at least initially;
(e) a Commons bill carried over before it reaches the Lords should not be treated differently from other bills when it reaches the Lords;
(f) no procedure should be agreed at this stage to carry over Lords bills still in the Lords when the session ends.
3. QUOTATION FROM COMMONS SPEECHES IN THE CURRENT SESSION
The present rule is that it is undesirable (i.e. out of order) in the House of Lords to quote from a speech made in the House of Commons in the current session, unless it is the speech of a Minister in relation to Government policy. A similar rule applies in the House of Commons. The Commons Modernisation Committee has reported (Fourth Report, 1997-98, HC 600) that the rule seems to them to be neither logical nor necessary, and that it is difficult to enforce since by the time the facts have been established it is generally too late to prevent a breach of the rule. The Committee agrees with the analysis of the Modernisation Committee and recommends that the rule relating to Commons’ speeches should be abolished in the House of Lords.
4. STARRED QUESTIONS
The Committee is concerned about the conduct of Starred Questions and the number of occasions recently when the Leader of the House has had to intervene. The Committee reminds the House of the guidance in the Companion:
“Starred Questions . . . are asked for information only, and not with a view to stating an opinion, making a speech or raising a debate.” (p 84)
The Committee also wishes to stress the following points:
— supplementary questions should not be read, and should be short; and ministerial replies as short as possible, consistent with answering the question;
— Lords should give way to each other promptly;
— shorter, sharper questions and answers will allow more Lords a chance to take part.
5. CONDUCT IN THE CHAMBER
The Committee reminds the House that—
(a) it is undesirable to use first names in the Chamber;
(b) Lords should not pass between the Woolsack (or the Chair) and any Lords who is speaking, but if they have to do so, they should bend down as they pass;
(c) Lords should not speak with their hands in their pockets;
(d) the correct way to refer to a Minister is “The noble Lord, the Minster”; it is not correct to refer to “The noble Minister”;
(e) the correct way to address the House is “My Lords”, or, where appropriate, to use the expressions “Your Lordships” or “Your Lordships’ House”.