House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98) |
Lords Journals Contents Index Alphabetical list of Lords Minutes and Order Papers |
Tuesday 21 July 1998 The House met at half-past two oclock. The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present: Irvine of Lairg, L.
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Bowness, L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Braine of Wheatley, L. Brentford, V. Bridges, L. Brightman, L. Broadbridge, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Brookeborough, V. Brookes, L. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Bruce of Donington, L. Bruntisfield, L. Buckinghamshire, E. Burlison, L. Burnham, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. Butterfield, L. Butterworth, L. Byford, B. Cadman, L. Callaghan of Cardiff, L. Calverley, L. Campbell of Alloway, L. Campbell of Croy, L. Carew, L. Carlisle, E. Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L. Carnegy of Lour, B. Carr of Hadley, L. Carter, L. Carver, L. Castle of Blackburn, B. Chadlington, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Chesham, L. Clancarty, E. Clanwilliam, E. Clark of Kempston, L. Cledwyn of Penrhos, L. Clement-Jones, L. Clyde, L. Cockfield, L. Cocks of Hartcliffe, L. Colwyn, L. Constantine of Stanmore, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Courtown, E. Craig of Radley, L. Craigavon, V. Crathorne, L. Crickhowell, L. Cross, V. Cuckney, L. Cullen of Ashbourne, L. Currie of Marylebone, L. Dahrendorf, L. Darcy de Knayth, B. Dartmouth, E. David, B. Davidson, V. Davies of Coity, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Dean of Beswick, L. Dean of Harptree, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B. Dearing, L. Denbigh, E. |
Denham, L. Denton of Wakefield, B. Derwent, L. Desai, L. Dholakia, L. Dilhorne, V. Dixon, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Dormand of Easington, L. Downe, V. Dubs, L. Dundee, E. Dundonald, E. Dunleath, L. Eatwell, L. Ellenborough, L. Elles, B. Elliott of Morpeth, L. Elton, L. Erroll, E. Evans of Parkside, L. Ewing of Kirkford, L. Exeter, Bp. Exmouth, V. Ezra, L. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Falkland, V. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Ferrers, E. Fitt, L. Flather, B. Fookes, B. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Freyberg, L. Gainford, L. Gainsborough, E. Gallacher, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Geddes, L. Gilbert, L. Gillmore of Thamesfield, L. Gisborough, L. Gladwin of Clee, L. Glenarthur, L. Glentoran, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Gormanston, V. Goschen, V. Gould of Potternewton, B. Graham of Edmonton, L. Grantchester, L. Gray of Contin, L. Greenway, L. Gregson, L. Grenfell, L. Grey, E. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Grimston of Westbury, L. Hacking, L. Halsbury, E. Hampton, L. Hanworth, V. Hardie, L. Harding of Petherton, L. Hardwicke, E. Hardy of Wath, L. Harmar-Nicholls, L. Harris of Greenwich, L. |
Harrowby, E. Haskel, L. Hattersley, L. Hayman, B. Healey, L. Hemphill, L. Henderson of Brompton, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Hindlip, L. Hogg of Cumbernauld, L. Holderness, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. HolmPatrick, L. Home, E. Hooper, B. Hooson, L. Hope of Craighead, L. Hothfield, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Hoyle, L. Hughes, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Hylton, L. Hylton-Foster, B. Ilchester, E. Inchyra, L. Ironside, L. Islwyn, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Jauncey of Tullichettle, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Jenkin of Roding, L. Jenkins of Hillhead, L. Jenkins of Putney, L. Johnston of Rockport, L. Jopling, L. Judd, L. Kenilworth, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Kennet, L. Kenyon, L. Kilbracken, L. Kimball, L. King of Wartnaby, L. Kingsland, L. Kinloss, Ly. Kinnoull, E. Kintore, E. Kirkhill, L. Kitchener, E. Knollys, V. Lang of Monkton, L. Lauderdale, E. Lawrence, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Lindsay, E. Lindsey and Abingdon, E. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E. Lockwood, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. Long, V. Longford, E. Lowry, L. Lucas, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Ludford, B. |
Luke, L. Lyell, L. McCarthy, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Macfarlane of Bearsden, L. McIntosh of Haringey, L. Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L. Mackay of Drumadoon, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L. Mackie of Benshie, L. McNair, L. McNally, L. Maddock, B. Mallalieu, B. Mancroft, L. Mar, C. Mar and Kellie, E. Marlesford, L. Marsh, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Mason of Barnsley, L. Massereene and Ferrard, V. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Merlyn-Rees, L. Mersey, V. Meston, L. Middleton, L. Miller of Hendon, B. Milner of Leeds, L. Milverton, L. Minto, E. Mishcon, L. Molloy, L. Molyneaux of Killead, L. Monkswell, L. Monson, L. Montagu of Beaulieu, L. Montague of Oxford, L. Monteagle of Brandon, L. Montrose, D. Moore of Wolvercote, L. Morris of Castle Morris, L. Morris of Manchester, L. Mowbray and Stourton, L. Moyne, L. Moynihan, L. Munster, E. Murray of Epping Forest, L. Murton of Lindisfarne, L. Napier and Ettrick, L. Napier of Magdâla, L. Naseby, L. Nelson, E. Newall, L. Newby, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, B. Noel-Buxton, L. Norfolk, D. Northesk, E. Norton, L. OCathain, B. Onslow, E. Onslow of Woking, L. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Orme, L. |
Orr-Ewing, L. Palmer, L. Park of Monmouth, B. Paul, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Pender, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Peston, L. Peyton of Yeovil, L. Phillips of Ellesmere, L. Pike, B. Pilkington of Oxenford, L. Pitkeathley, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Prentice, L. Prior, L. Puttnam, L. Quirk, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Randall of St. Budeaux, L. Rankeillour, L. Rawlings, B. Razzall, L. Rea, L. Redesdale, L. Rees, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L. Renton, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Renwick, L. Richardson, L. Ripon, Bp. Roberts of Conwy, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Rogers of Riverside, L. Romney, E. Rotherwick, L. Rowallan, L. Russell, E. Russell-Johnston, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Sainsbury, L. St. Davids, V. St. John of Bletso, L. St. John of Fawsley, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Sandberg, L. Sanderson of Bowden, L. Sandford, L. Sandwich, E. Seccombe, B. Sefton of Garston, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Sempill, L. Serota, B. Sewel, L. Shannon, E. Sharples, B. Shaughnessy, L. Shepherd, L. Shore of Stepney, L. Shuttleworth, L. Simon, V. |
Simon of Glaisdale, L. Skelmersdale, L. Slim, V. Slynn of Hadley, L. Smith of Clifton, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Spens, L. Stair, E. Stallard, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Stewartby, L. Stodart of Leaston, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Strabolgi, L. Strafford, E. Strange, B. Strathcarron, L. Strathclyde, L. Swinfen, L. Swinton, E. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Taverne, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Tebbit, L. Temple of Stowe, E. Teviot, L. Thomas of Gwydir, L. Thomas of Macclesfield, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Thomson of Monifieth, L. Thurlow, L. Thurso, V. Tope, L. Torphichen, L. Trefgarne, L. Trenchard, V. Trumpington, B. Tryon, L. Tugendhat, L. Turner of Camden, B. Uddin, B. Ullswater, V. Vinson, L. Vivian, L. Waddington, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. Wakeham, L. Walker of Doncaster, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Waverley, V. Weatherill, L. Wedgwood, L. Weir, V. Westbury, L. Wharton, B. Whitelaw, V. Whitty, L. Wigoder, L. Wilberforce, L. Wilcox, B. Williams of Elvel, L. Williams of Mostyn, L. Winchilsea and Nottingham, E. Windlesham, L. Wise, L. Wright of Richmond, L. Young, B. Young of Old Scone, B. |
PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter.
1. | Baroness UddinMrs Manzila Pola Uddin, having been created Baroness Uddin, of Bethnal Green in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, for life by Letters Patent dated in the afternoon of 18th July 1998 (see appendix 1), was introduced between the Lord Carter and the Lord Shore of Stepney, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute. |
2. | Lord AlliWaheed Alli Esquire, having been created Baron Alli, of Norbury in the London Borough of Croydon, for life by Letters Patent dated in the forenoon of 18th July 1998 (see appendix 2), was introduced between the Baroness Jay of Paddington and the Lord Montague of Oxford, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and made and subscribed the solemn affirmation pursuant to statute. |
3. | OathJohn Christian George Viscount Downe (Lord Dawnay) took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute. |
Judicial Business
4. | Woods (Respondent) v. Chief Adjudication Officer and another (Petitioners)Upon application by the petitioners (the agents for the respondent consenting thereto), it was ordered that the petition be withdrawn and that the petitioners do pay to the respondent his costs incurred in respect of the petition for leave to appeal to this House, such costs to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties. |
Papers
5. | Command PapersThe following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table: |
1. | MediaGovernment response to the Report of the House of Commons Culture, Media and Sport Committee on The Multimedia Revolution; |
(4020) |
2. | CommunicationsRegulating Communications: approaching convergence in the Information Age: Government consultation document; |
(4022) |
3. | DisabilityPromoting disabled peoples rights: Creating a Disability Rights Commission fit for the 21st Century: Government proposals; |
(3977) |
4. | Hong KongReport for JanuaryJune 1998 on Hong Kong. |
(4019) |
6. | Affirmative InstrumentsThe following instruments were laid before the House for approval by resolution and ordered to lie on the Table: |
1. | Draft Local Government (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998; |
2. | Draft Meat and Livestock Commission Levy (Variation) Scheme (Confirmation) Order 1998. |
7. | Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedingsThe following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table: |
1. | Revenue and Capital Accounts for 199798 of the Duchy of Lancaster, laid under the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster Act 1838; |
2. | Financial statements for 199798 of the South Bank Centre, laid under the Local Government Act 1985; |
3. | Report and Accounts for 199798 of the Social Security Agency, laid under the Exchequer and Audit (Northern Ireland) Act 1921; |
4. | Reports by the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland on: |
(i) | Controls to prevent and detect fraud in family practitioner service payments |
(ii) | the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum |
laid under the Audit (Northern Ireland) Order 1987; |
5. | Report and Accounts for 199798 of the Scottish Prison Service, laid under the Prisons (Scotland) Act 1989; |
6. | Report and Accounts for 199798 of the North Hull Housing Action Trust, laid under the Housing Act 1988; |
7. | Accounts for 199798 of the Commission for the New Towns, laid under the New Towns Act 1981; |
8. | Report and Accounts for 199798 of the United Kingdom Passport Agency, laid under the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1921; |
9. | Accounts for 199798 of: |
(i) | HM Land Registry |
(ii) | Companies House |
(iii) | Central Office of Information |
together with the Reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Government Trading Funds Act 1973; |
10. | Accounts for 199798 of the Welsh Language Board, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Welsh Language Act 1993; |
11. | Report and Accounts for 199798 of British Waterways, laid under the Transport Act 1962; |
12. | List of Exceptional Awards for 199798 made in respect of Noise-Induced Sensorineural Hearing Loss, laid under the Order in Council of 19th December 1881. |
13. | Accounts for 199798 of the Countryside Commission, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981; |
14. | Accounts for 199798 of the National Heritage Memorial Fund Heritage Lottery Fund: Lottery Distribution Account, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the National Lottery Etc. Act 1993; |
15. | Accounts for 199798 of the National Heritage Memorial Fund, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the National Heritage Act 1980. |
Select Committee Reports
8. | Statutory InstrumentsThe 42nd Report from the Joint Committee was made on certain statutory instruments, including the following affirmative instruments: |
Draft Conditional Fee Agreements Order 1998; |
Draft Education (Student Loans) (Scotland) Regulations 1998; |
Draft Education (Student Support) Regulations 1998; |
it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 134) |
9. | European CommunitiesThe 29th Report from the Select Committee, Europol: Third Country Rules, was made; it was ordered that the Report be printed, together with the Minutes of Evidence. (HL Paper 135) |
Public Business
10. | School Standards and Framework BillThe Commons reasons and amendments were considered; a Commons amendment to a Lords amendment was agreed to; the remaining Lords amendments were not insisted on, and Commons amendments to words so restored to the bill and a Commons amendment in lieu were agreed to. |
11. | Scotland BillThe House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed. |
12. | Arts strategyThe Earl of Clancarty asked Her Majestys Government whether they have an overall integrated arts strategy for the United Kingdom and, if so, what it is; after debate, the question was answered by the Lord McIntosh of Haringey. |
13. | Scotland BillThe House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; amendments were agreed to; a further amendment was agreed to (see division list 1); an amendment was disagreed to (see division list 2); the House was resumed after amendment 180. |
The House was adjourned at eight minutes before one oclock
in the morning of Wednesday 22nd July till later the same day, half-past two oclock in the afternoon.
DIVISIONS
Division No. 1
SCOTLAND BILL
It was moved by the Lord Sewel, in clause 29, page 15, line 27, at end to insert:
((2A) Her Majesty may by Order in Council specify functions which are to be treated, for such purposes of this Act as may be specified, as being, or as not being, functions which are exercisable in or as regards Scotland.);
which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:
Contents.............44
Not-Contents.............29
CONTENTS
Alderdice, L. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Burlison, L. Carlisle, E. Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L. Carter, L. [Teller] Dean of Beswick, L. Desai, L. Dubs, L. Evans of Parkside, L. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Gilbert, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. |
Grenfell, L. Hacking, L. Hardie, L. Hardy of Wath, L. Haskel, L. Hayman, B. Hoyle, L. Islwyn, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Lockwood, B. McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller] Mackie of Benshie, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Monkswell, L. Paul, L. |
Pitkeathley, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Rea, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Sewel, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Steel of Aikwood, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Thomas of Macclesfield, L. Thomson of Monifieth, L. Thurso, V. Tope, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Whitty, L. Young of Old Scone, B. |
NOT-CONTENTS
Balfour, E. Byford, B. Carnegy of Lour, B. Chesham, L. Courtown, E. [Teller] Dundonald, E. Dunleath, L. HolmPatrick, L. Kenyon, L. |
Kingsland, L. [Teller] Kintore, E. Lindsey and Abingdon, E. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L. Mackay of Drumadoon, L. Minto, E. Montrose, D. Palmer, L. |
Park of Monmouth, B. Renton, L. Rowallan, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Sempill, L. Stair, E. Stodart of Leaston, L. Torphichen, L. Trefgarne, L. Weir, V. |
Division No. 2
SCOTLAND BILL
It was moved by the Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, in Schedule 5, page 64, line 41, to leave out (and funding); which being objected to, the question was put thereupon, and the Committee divided:
Contents.............18
Not-Contents.............37
CONTENTS
Balfour, E. Byford, B. [Teller] Carnegy of Lour, B. Courtown, E. [Teller] HolmPatrick, L. |
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L. Mackay of Drumadoon, L. Montrose, D. Palmer, L. Park of Monmouth, B. Rowallan, L. |
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Sempill, L. Skelmersdale, L. Stair, E. Torphichen, L. Weir, V. |
NOT-CONTENTS
Alderdice, L. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Burlison, L. Carlisle, E. Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L. Carter, L. [Teller] Dean of Beswick, L. Dubs, L. Ewing of Kirkford, L. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. |
Gilbert, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Grenfell, L. Hacking, L. Hardie, L. Hardy of Wath, L. Haskel, L. Hayman, B. Hoyle, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Lockwood, B. McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller] |
Mackie of Benshie, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Monkswell, L. Pitkeathley, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Rendell of Babergh, B. Sewel, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Steel of Aikwood, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Thomson of Monifieth, L. Thurso, V. Whitty, L. Young of Old Scone, B. |
APPENDIX 1
ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our right trusty and well beloved Mrs Manzila Pola Uddin to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baroness Uddin of Bethnal Green in Our London Borough of Tower Hamlets
And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto her the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baroness Uddin to have and to hold unto her for her life
Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that she may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that she may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy
In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the eighteenth day of July in the forty-seventh year of Our Reign
BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEENS SIGN MANUAL
APPENDIX 2
ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our right trusty and well beloved Waheed Alli Esquire to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Alli of Norbury in Our London Borough of Croydon
And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Alli to have and to hold unto him for his life
Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy
In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the forenoon of the eighteenth day of July in the forty-seventh year of Our Reign
BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEENS SIGN MANUAL