House of Lords Journal 231 (Session 1997-98)

Previous Next Tuesday 13 October 1998 The House met at half-past two o’clock. The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present: Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor) Aberdare, L. Ackner, L. Addington, L. Addison, V. Ahmed, L. Ailesbury, M. Ailsa, M. Alderdice, L. Aldington, L. Alexander of Tunis, E. Allen of Abbeydale, L. Allenby of Megiddo, V. Alli, L. Alton of Liverpool, L. Amos, B. Ampthill, L. Anelay of St. Johns, B. Annaly, L. Annan, L. Archer of Sandwell, L. Ashbourne, L. Ashburton, L. Ashley of Stoke, L. Astor of Hever, L. Attlee, E. Avebury, L. Bach, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Baldwin of Bewdley, E. Balfour, E. Barnett, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Beaumont of Whitley, L. Page 1115 1997-98 Volume 231       Belhaven and Stenton, L. Beloff, L. Berkeley, L. Biddulph, L. Biffen, L. Blaker, L. Blatch, B. Blease, L. Bledisloe, V. Blyth, L. Boardman, L. Borrie, L. Boston of Faversham, L. Bowness, L. Brabazon of Tara, L. Bradford, Bp. Braine of Wheatley, L. Bramall, L. Brentford, V. Bridgeman, V. Bridges, L. Brightman, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Brookeborough, V. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Bruce of Donington, L. Bruntisfield, L. Burlison, L. Burnham, L. Burns, L. Butterfield, L. Butterworth, L. Cadman, L. Caithness, E. Calverley, L. Campbell of Alloway, L. Campbell of Croy, L. Carew, L. Carlisle, E. Carlisle, Bp. Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L. Carr of Hadley, L. Carter, L. Chalfont, L. Charteris of Amisfield, L. Chelmsford, V. Chesham, L. Clancarty, E. Clanwilliam, E. Clark of Kempston, L. Cledwyn of Penrhos, L. Clement-Jones, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Cockfield, L. Cocks of Hartcliffe, L. Coleraine, L. Colwyn, L. Constantine of Stanmore, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Courtown, E. Cox, B. Craig of Radley, L. Craigavon, V. Craigmyle, L. Cranborne, V. Cranbrook, E. Crathorne, L. Crawley, B. Crickhowell, L. Cross, V. Cuckney, L. Cullen of Ashbourne, L. Dahrendorf, L. Darcy de Knayth, B. Dartmouth, E. David, B. Davidson, V. Davies of Coity, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Dean of Beswick, L. Dean of Harptree, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B. Denbigh, E. Denton of Wakefield, B. Dholakia, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Donegall, M. Dormand of Easington, L. Dundonald, E. Dunrossil, V. Eatwell, L. Effingham, E. Elis-Thomas, L. Elles, B. Elliott of Morpeth, L. Erroll, E. Evans of Parkside, L. Ewing of Kirkford, L. Exmouth, V. Ezra, L. Falkland, V. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Feldman, L. Ferrers, E. Fitt, L. Flather, B. Fookes, B. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Freyberg, L. Gainford, L. Gainsborough, E. Gardner of Parkes, B. Garel-Jones, L. Geddes, L. Geraint, L. Gilmour of Craigmillar, L. Gladwin of Clee, L. Glenamara, L. Glentoran, L. Gloucester, Bp. Goodhart, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Goudie, B. Gould of Potternewton, B. Gowrie, E. Graham of Edmonton, L. Gray of Contin, L. Greene of Harrow Weald, L. Greenway, L. Gregson, L. Grenfell, L. Grey, E. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Grimston of Westbury, L. Hacking, L. Haddington, E. Halsbury, E. Hamwee, B. Hanningfield, L. Hanworth, V. Harding of Petherton, L. Hardy of Wath, L. Harmar-Nicholls, L. Harris of Greenwich, L. Haskel, L. Hayhoe, L. Hayman, B. Hayter, L. Headfort, M. Henley, L. Hereford, Bp. Higgins, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Hindlip, L. Hogg of Cumbernauld, L. Holderness, L. Hooper, B. Hooson, L. Howe, E. Hoyle, L. Hughes, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Hussey of North Bradley, L. Hylton, L. Hylton-Foster, B. Ilchester, E. Inchyra, L. Inglewood, L. Ironside, L. Islwyn, L. Iveagh, E. Jacobs, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Jellicoe, E. Jenkin of Roding, L. Jenkins of Hillhead, L. Jenkins of Putney, L. Jopling, L. Judd, L. Kennet, L. Keyes, L. Kimball, L. Kingsland, L. Kinloss, Ly. Kinnoull, E. Kirkhill, L. Kirkwood, L. Kitchener, E. Knight of Collingtree, B. Laing of Dunphail, L. Laming, L. Lane of Horsell, L. Lauderdale, E. Lawrence, L. Leathers, V. Leigh, L. Lindsay, E. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Listowel, E. Liverpool, E. Lockwood, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. Long, V. Page 1116 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top Longford, E. Lowry, L. Lucas, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Ludford, B. Luke, L. Lyell, L. McCarthy, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. McConnell, L. Macfarlane of Bearsden, L. McIntosh of Haringey, L. Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L. Mackie of Benshie, L. McNair, L. McNally, L. Maddock, B. Mallalieu, B. Malmesbury, E. Mancroft, L. Mar, C. Marlesford, L. Marsh, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Mason of Barnsley, L. Merlyn-Rees, L. Merrivale, L. Mersey, V. Middleton, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B. Miller of Hendon, B. Millett, L. Milner of Leeds, L. Milverton, L. Molloy, L. Molyneaux of Killead, L. Monkswell, L. Monro of Langholm, L. Monson, L. Montagu of Beaulieu, L. Montague of Oxford, L. Montgomery of Alamein, V. Moore of Wolvercote, L. Moran, L. Morris of Castle Morris, L. Morris of Manchester, L. Mottistone, L. Mountevans, L. Mowbray and Stourton, L. Moyne, L. Moynihan, L. Munster, E. Murton of Lindisfarne, L. Napier and Ettrick, L. Nelson, E. Newton of Braintree, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, B. Nicol, B. Noel-Buxton, L. Norfolk, D. Norrie, L. Northesk, E. Norton, L. Norton of Louth, L. Norwich, Bp. O’Cathain, B. Onslow of Woking, L. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Orme, L. Oxfuird, V. Palmer, L. Park of Monmouth, B. Paul, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Peel, E. Pender, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Perry of Walton, L. Peston, L. Peyton of Yeovil, L. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Pitkeathley, B. Platt of Writtle, B. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Prior, L. Prys-Davies, L. Quirk, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Randall of St. Budeaux, L. Rathcavan, L. Rawlings, B. Rawlinson of Ewell, L. Razzall, L. Rea, L. Reay, L. Rees, L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L. Rennell, L. Renton, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Richard, L. Rix, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Romney, E. Rotherwick, L. Rowallan, L. Russell, E. Russell-Johnston, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. St. Davids, V. St. John of Bletso, L. St. John of Fawsley, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Sandberg, L. Sandford, L. Sandwich, E. Savile, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Seccombe, B. Sefton of Garston, L. Selborne, E. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Selsdon, L. Sewel, L. Shannon, E. Sharples, B. Shaughnessy, L. Shepherd, L. Shore of Stepney, L. Simon, V. Simon of Glaisdale, L. Skelmersdale, L. Skidelsky, L. Slim, V. Smith of Clifton, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Soper, L. Stair, E. Stallard, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Stewartby, L. Stodart of Leaston, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Strabolgi, L. Strange, B. Strathcarron, L. Strathclyde, L. Sudeley, L. Swansea, L. Swinfen, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Taverne, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Taylor of Gryfe, L. Tenby, V. Teviot, L. Thomas of Gwydir, L. Thomas of Swynnerton, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Thomson of Monifieth, L. Thornton, B. Thurlow, L. Tomlinson, L. Tope, L. Trefgarne, L. Trumpington, B. Tryon, L. Turner of Camden, B. Tweeddale, M. Uddin, B. Varley, L. Vivian, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. Walker of Doncaster, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Walpole, L. Warnock, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Waverley, V. Weatherill, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Westbury, L. Wharton, B. Whitty, L. Wigoder, L. Wilberforce, L. Wilcox, B. Williams of Crosby, B. Williams of Elvel, L. Williams of Mostyn, L. Willoughby de Broke, L. Winchilsea and Nottingham, E. Wise, L. Young, B. Young of Old Scone, B. Page 1117 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Norwich. 1. Lord Ahmed—Nazir Ahmed Esquire, having been created Baron Ahmed, of Rotherham in the County of South Yorkshire, for life by Letters Patent dated in the afternoon of 3rd August 1998 (see appendix 1), was introduced between the Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale and the Lord Davies of Coity, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute. 2. Lord Hanningfield—Paul Edward Winston White Esquire, having been created Baron Hanningfield, of Chelmsford in the County of Essex, for life by Letters Patent dated in the forenoon of 31st July 1998 (see appendix 2), was introduced between the Baroness Platt of Writtle and the Lord Dixon-Smith, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod and Garter King of Arms preceding; and took and subscribed the oath pursuant to statute. Judicial Business 3. UCB Home Loans Corporation Limited (Respondents) v. Moore and another (A.P.) (Petitioner) (lodged 29th September)—The petition of Judit Moore praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. The petitioner’s legal aid certificate was lodged. 4. W 1-6 (Respondents) v. Essex County Council and another (Appellants)—It was ordered that the appellants be allowed to prosecute the appeal without giving the usual security for costs as required by Standing Order. 5. British Broadcasting Corporation (Respondents) v. Kelly-Phillips (Appellant)—It was ordered that the appellant be allowed to prosecute the appeal without giving the usual security for costs as required by Standing Order. Papers 6. Command Paper—The following paper was presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table: Standards in Public Life—5th Report of the Committee on Standards in Public Life: The Funding of Political Parties in the United Kingdom: (i) Report;   (4057-I) (ii) Evidence.   (4057-II) 7. Negative Instrument—The following instrument was laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table: Local Government Act 1988 (Defined Activities) (Exemptions) (No. 3) Order 1998, laid under the Local Government Act 1988. Select Committee Report 8. Procedure of the House—The 4th Report from the Select Committee was made (see appendix 3); it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 144) Public Business 9. European Central Bank (ECC Report)—It was moved by the Lord Barnett that this House take note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on the European Central Bank (24th Report, HL Paper 112); after debate, the motion was agreed to. 10. Sustainable Landfill (ECC Report)—It was moved by the Baroness Hilton of Eggardon that this House take note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on Sustainable Landfill (17th Report, HL Paper 83); after debate, the motion was agreed to. 11. Work and the family—The Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede asked Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to promote family-friendly working practices to enable people to balance the responsibilities of family life with the demands of paid work; after debate, the question was answered by the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. The House was adjourned at twenty-four minutes past eleven o’clock till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock. APPENDIX 1 ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our right trusty and well beloved Nazir Ahmed Esquire to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Ahmed of Rotherham in Our County of South Yorkshire Page 1118 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Ahmed to have and to hold unto him for his life Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the forenoon of the third day of August in the forty-seventh year of Our Reign BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEEN’S SIGN MANUAL APPENDIX 2 ELIZABETH THE SECOND by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith To all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other Our Subjects whatsoever to whom these Presents shall come Greeting Know Ye that We of Our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf Us enabling do by these Presents advance create and prefer Our right trusty and well beloved Paul Edward Winston White Esquire to the state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Hanningfield of Chelmsford in Our County of Essex And for Us Our heirs and successors do appoint give and grant unto him the said name state degree style dignity title and honour of Baron Hanningfield to have and to hold unto him for his life Willing and by these Presents granting for Us Our heirs and successors that he may have hold and possess a seat place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of Us Our heirs and successors within Our United Kingdom amongst the Barons And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights privileges pre-eminences immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging which Barons of Our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as they do at present use and enjoy In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster in the forenoon of the thirty-first day of July in the forty-seventh year of Our Reign BY WARRANT UNDER THE QUEEN’S SIGN MANUAL APPENDIX 3 Fourth Report from the Select Committee on the Procedure of the House Tuesday 13th October 1998 By the Select Committee on Procedure of the House Ordered to Report— 1. Lord Chancellor’s Formal Dress The Committee considered a memorandum by the Lord Chancellor which proposed that: (a) in future, on ordinary sitting days the Lord Chancellor should wear black trousers and black shoes instead of breeches, tights and buckled shoes; and (b) whenever the Lord Chancellor speaks as a Government Minister, he should be allowed to do so from the Government Front Bench, as he already does when the House is in committee, having divested himself of his wig and gown. For certain items of business, such as Starred Questions or formal stages of bills, the Lord Chancellor would continue to speak from the left of the Woolsack. The Lord Chancellor told the Committee that on all ceremonial occasions he would wear breeches and tights, as he did now, and that, in his view, the dignity of the office of Lord Chancellor would not be reduced by the small change in dress he proposed. So far as his proposal to conduct government business from the Front Bench was concerned, he believed he could do so more efficiently if he did not have to act also as Speaker. In particular, the wearing of a full bottomed wig when taking a bill through the House was both restrictive and tiring. The Committee took note of the following points:— (i) The House attached great importance to its ceremonial. The role of the Lord Chancellor as Speaker of the House was a significant one. There would be a lessening of dignity and authority if the Lord Chancellor abandoned his traditional dress, even in such a modest way. (ii) Following the recent changes to the Introducton ceremony, the proposals could be seen as another move towards dismantling the richness and colour of the House’s ceremonial and procedure. Page 1119 1997-98 Volume 231 Back to top (iii) Breeches and tight were not worn by judges on a daily basis. These were reserved for ceremonial occasions, as proposed by the Lord Chancellor for himself. (iv) The Speaker of the House of Commons no longer wore a full bottomed wig. Why should the Lord Chancellor not also adapt his dress in the way proposed? (v) It was a great burden on Lord Chancellors when they had both to conduct government business and preside over the House, particularly at the Report stages of public bills. (vi) The Standing Orders of the House already acknowledged that there was a difference between the Lord Chancellor’s role as Speaker and his role as a Minister. A move to the Government Front Bench would more clearly illustrate the difference in these roles. (vii) While the proposed changes, both to dress and procedure, were modest and practical, it would be desirable to postpone them until after the anticipated reform of the composition of the House. The Committee noted that there was strong opposition to both proposals made by the Lord Chancellor. The Committee nevertheless recommends that in future the Lord Chancellor should be able, if he wishes, to speak from the Government Front Bench, even when the House is sitting as a House. His place on the Woolsack would be taken by a Deputy Speaker. The Committee approved the necessary amendments to Standing Orders 15 and 16, which will be brought before the House in due course. The Committee also recommends that the Lord Chancellor should be able to wear trousers instead of breeches and tights on ordinary sitting days. The Committee took note of the Lord Chancellor’s wish to wear his full uniform on all ceremonial occasions. The Committee also noted that there would be no change in the dress worn by Officers of the House. 2. Questions for Written Answer The Committee reviewed the procedure recommended in November 19971 whereby questions for written answer are published only once, when they are tabled, and republished only if they are altered. Lords have found this practice inconvenient. The Committee recommends that all unanswered questions for written answer should be republished once a week in the Minutes of Proceedings. In order to reinforce the practice that questions for written answers should be answered within a fortnight, the Committee also recommends that questions unanswered after 21 days should be republished in the Minutes every day thereafter until they are answered. 3. Working Group on Procedure in the Chamber Following complaints that conduct in the House and adherence to its procedures have deteriorated recently, the Committee agreed to a proposal of the Leader of the House that a Working Group of backbenchers should be appointed to consider procedures in the Chamber, with the following terms of reference:‘ To consider how the procedures of the House can be improved within the existing framework of self-regulation; and to make proposals for ensuring that Lords are better informed of procedure so that self-regulation can work.’ Any proposals made by the Working Group would be referred to the Procedure Committee for consideration and approval. 4. Conduct in the Chamber The Committee reviewed its recommendation in its 3rd Report2 that Lords should not speak with their hands in their pockets. Representations have been made to the Committee that it is not appropriate to regulate the conduct of Lords in such detail. Accordingly, the Committee recommends that this decision be set aside. 5. Government Answers to Written Questions by E-Mail The Committee agree to a proposal by the Government for a pilot scheme to use electronic means to improve the processing of Questions for Written Answer in Parliament and Government. Answers approved by Ministers will be sent electronically to Parliament and by e-mail to the Peer, if he wishes. The electronic arrangements will provide an additional service for those who wish to use it. The present arrangements, with the usual paper copy of the answer, will continue. 1 2nd Report, 1997–98, paragraph 3 (HL Paper 38). 2 3rd Report, 1997–98, HL Paper 106.