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Baroness Hollis of Heigham moved Amendment No. 18:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 18 and to speak also to Amendments Nos. 19 to 28 and also to Amendment No. 45. This group of amendments would change the mechanism by which functions in respect of Northern Ireland would transfer. While they provide greater flexibility, they would not affect the policy intention or the eventual result. They are about form rather than substance.
At Second Reading, I said that national insurance contributions operations are managed by the Contributions Unit, which is part of the Northern Ireland Social Security Agency. As in Great Britain, the bulk of NICs are collected by the Inland Revenue alongside tax. Further, centralised functions, such as maintaining the records of contributors in Northern Ireland, are done by the Contributions Agency in Great Britain on behalf of the Northern Ireland Social Security Agency. Accordingly, we intend that the Contributions Unit should transfer to the Inland Revenue at the same time as the Contributions Agency.
As currently drafted, Clause 23 provides for a two-stage transfer via the DSS. The first stage from the Northern Ireland Department to DSS would be done by Order in Council under Section 86 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The second transfer, from DSS to the Inland Revenue, would be done by Order in Council under this clause. That was consistent with the aim that the Northern Ireland Assembly should start work on 1st February.
It is now clear that, despite all the efforts that have been made, the Assembly will not start work that early. So we now think it makes more sense to provide in this Bill for a direct transfer of the operational functions from the Northern Ireland Department to the Inland Revenue. That will ensure that a seamless transfer of operational functions can happen for the whole of the United Kingdom in April.
Amendment No. 21 provides the flexibility to perform a direct transfer of policy functions to Treasury and Inland Revenue, if that looks the best way of securing the policy intention of a simultaneous policy transfer to the Chancellor's departments across the United Kingdom. Amendment No. 22 retains the option of a two-stage transfer.
So the clause as amended would facilitate a simultaneous operational and policy transfer on 1st April across the whole of the UK. Or it could be used to transfer operational functions to the Inland Revenue, and policy functions to DSS, on 1st April, with a subsequent onward transfer of GB and Northern Ireland policy functions on the same day.
Amendments Nos. 19, 21, and 28 allow for the restructuring and renaming of Northern Ireland departments that is proposed to happen before the Assembly starts work. These amendments retain our policy intention of a single operational transfer across the UK on 1st April--I understand that there is a question mark in relation to that, given the speed of the Northern Ireland developments--and a single date for the policy transfers to Treasury and Inland Revenue. I beg to move.
Lord Higgins: My Lords, I can understand the reason for flexibility. If it can be short-circuited in the way which has just been described, why was it not done that way in the first place?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am not sure what the noble Lord means by "the first place".
Lord Higgins: My Lords, we are changing the system, as I understand it, and doing it directly from the
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I think the most useful thing I can say to the noble Lord is that we expected all this to have happened by 1st February and that the Northern Ireland Assembly would be up and running by 1st February, so that this would then have followed conventional practice in other departments. If I can help the noble Lord further on this as to whether there is some technical reason, I will come back to him, but that is my understanding.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham moved Amendments Nos. 19 to 28:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move these amendments formally.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 27 [Short title, commencement and extent]:
Lord Higgins had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 30:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I had indicated that I would move Amendment No. 30 but as we have already debated its substance, I shall not move the amendment.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham moved Amendment No. 32:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 32 and to speak also to Amendments Nos. 36 and 37. If I may deal with this slightly back to front, Amendment No. 36 is a technical amendment, which extends slightly the powers of the existing joint authority, comprising the Secretary of State for Social Security and the Departments of Health and Social Services for Northern Ireland, that co-ordinates the social security system across the United Kingdom. It ensures that the joint authority will continue to be able to make adjustments between the Great Britain and Northern Ireland National Insurance Funds once those funds have been transferred to the control and management of the Inland Revenue.
Amendment No. 37 makes the same changes to the powers of the new joint authority, which will include also the Chancellor, to be set up under the 1998 Northern Ireland Act when the Northern Ireland Assembly starts work. Finally, Amendment No. 32 makes a consequential adjustment in Clause 27 so that these amendments apply in Northern Ireland. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham moved Amendment No. 33:
Page 12, line 35, at end insert ("do any of the following").
Page 12, line 36, leave out ("Secretary of State") and insert ("relevant Northern Ireland authority").
Page 12, line 38, leave out ("or 2").
Page 12, leave out lines 40 to 43 and insert--
("(b) make provision for transferring from the relevant Northern Ireland authority to the Secretary of State any other function in relation to Northern Ireland which relates to any of the matters specified in paragraph 10 of Schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (excepted matters),
(bb) make provision for transferring from the relevant Northern Ireland authority to the Board or the Treasury any function in relation to Northern Ireland corresponding to a function transferred to the Board or, as the case may be, the Treasury by virtue of section 2 of this Act, and").
Page 12, line 46, at end insert--
("(1A) If an Order in Council made under this section by virtue of subsection (1)(b) above has transferred to the Secretary of State any function in relation to Northern Ireland which corresponds to a function transferred to the Board or the Treasury by virtue of section 2 of this Act, Her Majesty may by a further Order in Council under this section make provision for transferring that function from the Secretary of State to the Board or, as the case may be, the Treasury.").
Page 12, line 47, leave out from ("may,") to end of line 2 on page 13 and insert ("for the purposes of the Order").
Page 13, line 8, leave out from first ("provision") to ("as") in line 11.
Page 13, line 11, at end insert (", including--
(i) provision modifying references in any enactment to the Northern Ireland Assembly, to statutory rules for the purposes of the Statutory Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979 or to the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland,
(ii) provision for the transfer of property, rights and liabilities, and
(iii) provision for the transfer to Her Majesty's Home Civil Service of persons employed in the Northern Ireland Civil Service.").
Page 13, line 12, leave out subsection (3) and insert--
("(3) A certificate issued by the Board, the Secretary of State or the Treasury that any property vested in a Northern Ireland department immediately before an Order under this section takes effect has been transferred by virtue of the Order to the Board, the Secretary of State or the Treasury, as the case may be, shall be conclusive evidence of the transfer.
(4) A certificate issued by the Board or the Treasury that any property vested in the Secretary of State immediately before an Order under this section takes effect has been transferred by virtue of the Order to the Board or the Treasury, as the case may be, shall be conclusive evidence of the transfer.").
Page 13, line 16, at end insert--
("( ) Subsection (1A) above does not limit the powers conferred by section 22 of this Act in relation to Northern Ireland.").
Page 13, line 16, at end insert--
("( ) In this section "the relevant Northern Ireland authority", in relation to any function, means the Northern Ireland department by which the function is exercisable.").
Page 14, line 30, leave out ("the passing of this Act") and insert ("such day after 30th November 1999 as the Secretary of State may, by order, appoint").
Page 15, line 3, at end insert--
("( ) section 2 and Schedule 3 so far as they amend section 177 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 or section 88 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998,").
4.30 p.m.
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