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The Earl of Mar and Kellie: Perhaps I may draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Cope, to the fact that Chapter IV--Clauses 43 to 49--applies to Scotland. The clauses prevent Scottish newspapers from
publishing such stories from England and Wales. That will be a new law. Previously the Scottish press were free to report on such matters.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: I am grateful to the noble Earl for pointing that out. While it applies to the newspapers in Scotland, an incident in Scotland such as Dunblane would not be covered by the restrictions.
7.45 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: The media have had concerns, some of which have been articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. I believe that some of their fears may be based on a misunderstanding of what is intended. That is the reason that I wish to meet them, to see whether or not we can find common ground. I think that we should be able to do so.
I need say no more at present except that the amendments are defective. They assume that the only prosecuting authority is the police. Of course that is not so. Customs and Excise or the DSS come to mind immediately. It would give far too much discretion to the police. There is no difficulty in terms of speed because in Clause 43(8) we specifically cater for application to a single justice alone. That can be done very quickly.
Some of the questions have been based, I believe, on misapprehensions. The restrictions apply to juveniles involved in the offence; so one can name schools and headmasters but not the juveniles concerned. However, I believe that the press has a proper part to play. Its concerns should be carefully attended to. Equally, in answer to an earlier observation by the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, if any pressure group or group with interests involving the child wishes to correspond or to meet with me, I have said constantly that the door is always open to anyone who has a point of view to express.
I repeat: I think that the press has fears that may be put to rest by explanation. I am more than happy to listen to them. First, the amendments are too narrowly drawn. Secondly, I hope to give some sensible indication to noble Lords at Report stage as to whether or not I have been able to come to agreement, and in what terms.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: We shall have the opportunity to return to these matters at a later stage. I accept that the intention underlying the clauses is good. My concern is with the details of the way in which it is applied, as I sought to make clear.
I realise that the amendment does not include all the prosecuting authorities. My recollection is that Customs and Excise does not have occasion frequently to deal with crimes dealing with juveniles, although it does sometimes. I had some responsibility for that body for a couple of years although not as regards prosecution.
It seemed to me that identifying a school was prohibited by Clause 43(5)(c). However, perhaps I misunderstood what the Minister said. I shall read carefully in the written record what he had to say. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 126C:
The noble Lord said: When a particularly hideous crime is committed, a Statement is sometimes made in both Houses of Parliament. I hope that the Bill does not prevent the reporting of such parliamentary proceedings or, for that matter, lesser proceedings of that kind. I seek reassurance from the Minister. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: I believe that that assurance will be given easily to my noble friend. Indeed, having been in Parliament since 1945, first in one House and then the other, I have never heard of any restriction upon parliamentary proceedings--although during the war if Parliament so resolved there were such restrictions. I hope that I do not disagree with my noble friend but, if I do, I seek assurance from the earlier remark of my noble friend Lord Windlesham. He rightly referred to noble Lords' independence of opinion. That is very important. We put individual intellectual ability above party commitment. I hope that we always shall.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: The point identified by the noble Lord, Lord Cope, is whether the publication of the Official Report would be affected by Clause 43. That is governed by privilege and precedent. Words spoken by Members of both Houses have absolute privilege by virtue of Article 9 of the Bill of Rights. The verbatim report of those words published in the Official Report attracts absolute privilege by virtue of Section 2 of the Parliamentary Papers Act 1840. Television and radio excerpts from Parliament have qualified privilege from prosecution by virtue of Section 3 of the Act; that is, if they can show that they have acted in good faith. So if there is an accurate, verbatim record of what was said in the course of parliamentary proceedings, and it is broadcast in good faith, the broadcaster enjoys immunity from criminal prosecution. We have no intention of altering the way in which proceedings of Parliament are reported. Restrictions on reporting which apply to other statutes do not have the protective caveats such as the one suggested by the noble Lord. I quite understand. He wished, I think, for the answer I have given.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: I am grateful for that reassurance. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 44 [Power to restrict reporting of criminal proceedings involving persons under 18]:
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 126D:
The noble Lord said: In this otherwise perfect Bill, a gap has been found. We need to fill it in order to deal with Northern Ireland. Therefore, we have tabled
Lord Renton: I do not resist the amendments, but I am puzzled about one issue. The new proposed subsection (13) provides that for the reference to the age of 18 there is to be a reference to the age of 17. Does that mean that people in Northern Ireland mature a year sooner than others? The new proposed subsection (14) refers to a young person who has attained the age of 14 but is under the age of 17. That needs a little explanation.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: I know that with the noble Lord in the Chamber I should not have spoken so quickly. I will write to him giving those technical details. The answer has arrived in front of me, but it will not be sufficient for the noble Lord's purposes. It states that the new subsection is consistent with Northern Ireland legislation. I believe that the noble Lord is entitled to a better explanation. He shall have it by writing and I shall place a copy in the Library.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Windlesham had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 126E:
The noble Lord said: My amendment has already been spoken to. Provided that there is no resiling from the additional protection which this part of the Bill affords to children and young people, witnesses, victims and defendants, I shall not move it.
[Amendment No. 126E not moved.]
[Amendment No. 126F not moved.]
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Reporting restrictions: miscellaneous amendments]:
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendment No. 126G:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 51 [Determining competence of witnesses]:
Page 31, line 42, at end insert--
("( ) Nothing in this section shall impose any restriction on the reporting of Parliamentary proceedings.").
Page 32, line 7, leave out from ("1933") to end of line 9.
Page 32, line 15, leave out subsection (4).
Page 50, line 39, leave out ("or Northern Ireland") and insert--
("(13) In its application to Northern Ireland, this section has effect as if--
(a) in subsection (1) for the reference to the age of 18 there were substituted a reference to the age of 17;
(b) subsection (2)(c) and (d) were omitted;
(c) in subsection (4A)--
(i) in paragraph (d) for the reference to section 16(3) of the Criminal Justice Act 1982 there were substituted a reference to Article 50(3) of the Criminal Justice (Children) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998; and
(ii) in paragraph (e) for the references to a detention and training order and to section 76(6)(b) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 there were substituted references to a juvenile justice centre order and to Article 40(2) of the Criminal Justice (Children) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998;
(d) in subsection (5) for references to a court (other than the reference in paragraph (b)) there were substituted references to a court or the Secretary of State;
(e) in subsection (7)--
(i) for the references to the Director of Public Prosecutions there were substituted references to the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland; and
(ii) in paragraph (b) for the reference to any legal representative of the child or young person there were substituted a reference to any barrister or solicitor acting for the child or young person;
(f) subsections (8) and (10) were omitted; and
(g) in subsection (11)--
(i) the definition of "legal representative" were omitted; and
(ii) for the references to section 31(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 there were substituted references to Article 2(2) of the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1996.
(14) References in this section to a young person concerned in proceedings are, where the proceedings are in a court in Northern Ireland, to a person who has attained the age of 14 but is under the age of 17."").
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