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Lord Windlesham: My Lords, perhaps the noble and learned Lord will forgive me for interrupting him at the start of his winding-up speech. Is there to be any enforcement procedure and, if so, what will it be?

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, the procedure will be the same as in any other case; that is, by way of judicial review to the High Court. If it can be shown that the person making the decision had disregarded an objective to which it was his statutory duty to have regard, that decision could be upset.

I thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. He is in sympathy with what he calls the aspirational purpose of the amendment. He said so on more than one occasion in his reply. For our part, we believe that we have gone all the way to meet the difficulties which he foresaw when the amendment was proposed in Committee. At present, we see no reason why he should not accept the amendment as it stands. I emphasise that this is not just a question of my words

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against his words. It may look like that, especially to non-lawyers, but there is an important point of principle here. For that reason I seek the opinion of the House.

4.3 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 182; Not-Contents, 111.

Division No. 1


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ailsa, M.
Alderdice, L.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bath, M.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Belstead, L.
Bethell, L.
Biddulph, L.
Biffen, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blatch, B.
Bramall, L.
Bridges, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carew, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L.
Chorley, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Coleraine, L.
Coleridge, L.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Davidson, V.
Davies, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dudley, E.
Dundee, E.
Dundonald, E.
Eames, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gage, V.
Gainford, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gladwyn, L.
Glasgow, E.
Goodhart, L.
Gormanston, V.
Granard, E.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Halsbury, E.
Hanningfield, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller.]
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hood, V.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Iveagh, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Knollys, V.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Leigh, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L. [Teller.]
Long, V.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Ludford, B.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monk Bretton, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Morris, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Napier of Magdala, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Newby, L.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Nunburnholme, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Ogmore, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pender, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rowallan, L.
Runciman of Doxford, V.
Russell, E.
St. Davids, V.
Seccombe, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Strange, B.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Torrington, V.
Trefgarne, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Warnock, B.
Westbury, L.
Wilcox, B.
Young, B.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Ailesbury, M.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fitt, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glanusk, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hacking, L.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Levy, L.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNair, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stallard, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Thurlow, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Warner, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Wrenbury, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

11 Feb 1999 : Column 338

4.14 p.m.

Clause 1 [The Legal Services Commission]:

Lord Clinton-Davis moved Amendment No. 2:

Page 2, line 3, at end insert--
("( ) The Commission shall include at least one solicitor, one barrister, and one representative of consumers each of whom shall have knowledge of the provision of services which the Commission can fund, appointed after consultation with the Law Society, the General Council of the Bar, and organisations representing consumers, respectively.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving this amendment it may be for the convenience of the House if we also discuss Amendment No. 5. At the outset may I very much welcome my noble and learned friend's amendment. I believe that it is what the Committee clearly wanted when we debated the matter. I hope that he will be benign as regards my amendment.

I know not with what unique cry of joy the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, will appreciate the amendment that she has won. She inspired the whole Committee recently with her rather unusual exclamation. Unfortunately, the Bill currently contains no provision on the part of the Government to consult representative bodies before making appointments to the commission. It is important that there should be consultation.

Perhaps I may say initially that people who are members of the commission are not there in any delegate status, but as those with expertise in their particular field just as members of the Civil Aviation Authority are not there as delegates. So it is not uncommon for committees or commissions of this character to be peopled by members of that kind.

It is very important to ensure that people who come on to the commission with the necessary expertise are people of considerable calibre. The professional and consumer bodies concerned have a particular role in helping to ensure that that objective is reached. For example, the professional bodies would become directly aware of advertisements which my noble and learned friend will place in relation to the appointments. In turn, they can play their part in ensuring, on a perfectly reasonable, equitable and competitive basis, that suitable candidates come forward. They can play a real part not only in doing that, but also in encouraging people to

11 Feb 1999 : Column 339

come forward to fill the positions. I cannot see why my noble friends should resist that. It is usually part and parcel of the process of government to engage in such consultations, so why not ensure that that duty appears on the face of the Bill. I beg to move.

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