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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, this amendment would apply the affirmative resolution procedure to regulations relating to the membership and procedure of the Greater London magistrates' courts authority. Similar matters to these for magistrates' courts committees throughout England and Wales generally are currently dealt with under the negative resolution procedure. They relate to administrative details, such as constitution, procedure and quorum of committees, which may need to change from time to time.
The Government recognise the special needs of the capital in creating the Greater London magistrates' courts authority. Although it will be much larger than, and have some additional functions over and above those of other magistrates' courts committees, it is important that it still fits within the national framework for the magistrates' courts service wherever this is appropriate. As I indicated, if this amendment were allowed, for everywhere else except London the negative procedure rather than the affirmative procedure would apply.
The Government intend to bring forward further amendments to this clause in another place, which I hope will relieve some of the noble and learned Lord's concerns. I should emphasise that the Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Deregulation has already considered that the existing structure involving the negative procedure provides the appropriate degree of parliamentary control. In seeking differentiation from other magistrates' courts, he is also asking for more than the Select Committee suggested is appropriate. In those circumstances, I respectfully invite the noble and learned Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ackner: My Lords, I am bound to say that I am disappointed with that answer. In effect, we are considering the effective and efficient administration of summary justice for approximately one-seventh of the population. At this late stage, I can do no more than express the hope that in another place a good deal of what I have sought may be achieved. Accordingly, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 21:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of Amendments Nos. 21 and 22 is to provide that Schedule 10 and Section 81 of the Act shall both come into force at the end of the period of two months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, rather than by order. That will remove the need for separate commencement orders. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 22:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have already spoken to the amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Lord Chancellor moved Amendments Nos. 23 and 24:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have already spoken to these amendments. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 1 [The Legal Services Commission]:
The Lord Chancellor moved Amendment No. 25:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment clarifies that the annual plan prepared by the legal services commission will include a summary of the assessment of the need for services to be provided through the community legal service, which the commission will carry out under Clause 5(5).
On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, tabled an amendment along very similar lines. He argued that, since under Clause 5(5) the commission will be under a duty to inform itself about the need for services, and under paragraph 15 of Schedule 1 it must prepare a plan setting out how it will fund services and exercise its other functions, it would be appropriate for the plan to include the assessment of need upon which it is based.
There is an undoubted logic in the argument advanced by the noble and learned Lord. Indeed, as I explained on Report, it has always been our intention that the annual plan should summarise the outcome of the assessment of need which will be carried out by the regional legal services committees and reported to the commission in the "regional strategies". I therefore undertook to seek the draftsman's view on the precise wording of an amendment to make this intention clear on the face of the Bill. The result of that exercise is the amendment now before the House.
The amendment provides the final element of the planning and reporting arrangements set out in the Bill, which will deliver a high degree of transparency for Parliament and the public about the activities of the commission and the provision of publicly funded legal services. The "regional strategies" will be the subject of wide consultation and will be published. The commission's annual plan, which will set out the results of the assessment of need and how the commission intends to meet that need having regard to the priorities set out by the Lord Chancellor, will be laid before Parliament and published. The commission's annual report, setting out how it has performed against its plan,
Lord Goodhart: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the amendment. It is another step forward in ensuring that this House and the public at large obtain full information about the working of the legal services commission. I am happy to support the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Lord Chancellor moved Amendment No. 26:
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this amendment is to appoint the Comptroller and Auditor General auditor of the legal services commission. As currently drafted, paragraph 16 of Schedule 1 provides that the accounts of the legal services commission shall be audited by persons appointed by the Lord Chancellor in accordance with a scheme of audit approved by him. It further provides that the auditors shall report to the Lord Chancellor on the accounts and the statement of accounts and, on completion of the audit, shall send a copy of the statement of accounts and their report to the Lord Chancellor and to the Comptroller and Auditor General, who may inspect the accounts and any records relating to them. The Lord Chancellor shall then lay before Parliament a copy of the statement of accounts and the auditors' report. These arrangements replicate those currently in place in relation to the Legal Aid Board.
Under these arrangements, therefore, the Comptroller and Auditor General would have inspection rights to the commission's accounts and related records to enable him to discharge his functions under the National Audit Act 1983 to carry out examinations into the economy, efficiency and effectiveness with which public bodies have used their resources in discharging their functions and to report to Parliament through the Select Committee on Public Accounts. But in practice, under such arrangements, the Comptroller and Auditor General tends to rely to a great extent on the work of the appointed auditors to avoid a major duplication of work.
The Government are committed to increasing transparency and openness to Parliament. For that reason, we believe that the auditor of public bodies should be the Comptroller and Auditor General rather than an auditor appointed by the relevant Minister unless there is some special reason why the auditor of a particular public body should have knowledge or
This amendment will improve the accountability to Parliament of the commission. The Comptroller and Auditor General will have complete discretion, on behalf of Parliament, over the scope of the audit, and the Comptroller and Auditor General will report to Parliament rather than to the Lord Chancellor. I know that the chairman of the Select Committee on Public Accounts supports the improved accountability which will result from the amendment.
The amendment will also bring other benefits. The commission's accounts will be scrutinised by those who possess the greatest expertise in the audit of public moneys; and the total audit burden will be reduced because the duplication of the Comptroller and Auditor General having to inspect the commission's accounts separately in order to report to Parliament on regularity and propriety will be removed. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: My Lords, this is obviously a good amendment which should be supported. There is, however, one point on which I think we should have some assurance from the noble and learned Lord. We must avoid delay. The amendment states that the statement of accounts shall be submitted,
Page 52, line 26, leave out ("and") and insert--
("( ) Schedule 10,").
Page 52, line 28, at end insert ("and
( ) section 81.").
Page 52, line 32, leave out ("extends") and insert ("and section (Power to allow children to attend criminal proceedings)(2) extend").
Page 52, line 34, leave out from ("77") to ("this") in line 4 on page 53 and insert ("extend to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
(4) The other provisions of this Act which make amendments or repeals or revocations in other enactments also have the same extent as the enactments which they amend or repeal or revoke.
(4A) Subject to subsection (4), the provisions of this Part (including paragraph 1, but not the rest, of Schedule 10) extend to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
(5) Subject to the preceding provisions,").
Page 57, line 33, at end insert--
("and the plan shall include a summary of what the Commission has ascertained in the exercise of its functions under section 5(5).").
Page 58, leave out lines 7 to 32 and insert--
("(3) The Commission shall send a copy of the statement of accounts in respect of each financial year to the Lord Chancellor and to the Comptroller and Auditor General within such period after the end of the financial year to which it relates as the Lord Chancellor may specify by direction given to the Commission.
(4) The Comptroller and Auditor General shall--
(a) examine, certify and report on each statement of accounts received by him under sub-paragraph (3), and
(b) lay a copy of each such statement of accounts, and his report on it, before each House of Parliament.").
6.15 p.m.
"within such period ... as the Lord Chancellor may specify by direction given to the Commission".
What sort of period does the Lord Chancellor have in mind? On any matter of public accounts, it is essential that the whole issue should be resolved within a few months of the end of the financial year and not hang over until the following financial year. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord will say what period he has in mind. Indeed, when the Bill goes to another place, perhaps that period could be specified rather than the provisions stating as now,
"within such period ... as the Lord Chancellor may specify".
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