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Division No. 2

CONTENTS
Abercorn, D.
Ailsa, M.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Bathurst, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Belstead, L.
Biddulph, L.
Biffen, L.
Blyth, L.
Boardman, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burton, L.
Buscombe, B.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Caldecote, V.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carrick, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chesham, L.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L.
Clinton, L.
Coleridge, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cross, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Davidson, V.
Deedes, L.
Denman, L.
Donegall, M.
Dudley, E.
Ellenborough, L.
Erne, E.
Exmouth, V.
Ferrers, E. [Teller.]
Fisher, L.
Fookes, B.
Gainsborough, E.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gisborough, L.
Gray, L.
Hamilton of Dalzell, L.
Hankey, L.
Hawke, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hesketh, L.
Holmpatrick, L.
Hothfield, L.
Iddesleigh, E.
Inchcape, E.
Jopling, L.
Kenyon, L.
Kimball, L.
Kimberley, E.
Kingsdown, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Kitchener, E.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Knutsford, V.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Leigh, L.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Mancroft, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monk Bretton, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Morris of Kenwood, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Moyne, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Norrie, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pender, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rees, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sharples, B.
Somerset, D.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Sudeley, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Teviot, L.
Torrington, V.
Trefgarne, L. [Teller.]
Trumpington, B.
Tryon, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Westbury, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Burns, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L. [Teller.]
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Diamond, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dunleath, L.
Eatwell, L.
Effingham, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Geraint, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenamara, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hacking, L.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanworth, V.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Islwyn, L.
Iveagh, E.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Ludford, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller.]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Onslow, E.
Orme, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Russell, E.
St. Davids, V.
Sawyer, L.
Serota, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaughnessy, L.
Shepherd, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

30 Jun 1999 : Column 318

5.43 p.m.

Earl Ferrers moved Amendment No. 49:

After Clause 3, insert the following new clause--

RETENTION OF ANCILLARY RIGHTS
(" . Any person who is the holder of an hereditary peerage and who would but for this Act be entitled to receive a writ of summons to attend the House of Lords and to sit and vote in that House shall be entitled to continue to exercise the same rights of access to, and use of, the House of Lords and any premises occupied by that House to which he would have been entitled but for the passing of this Act.").

The noble Earl said: My Lords, we referred to this amendment the other day. It is an amendment which would allow hereditary Peers to continue to come here and use the facilities of the House once this Bill has been passed. I believe it is fair to say that not many will do so. I also believe that if there is to be a reform of this nature, it would be a pity if it were done without decorum. I believe that it is an indecorous way of going

30 Jun 1999 : Column 319

about things to say to people who have been in this House for many years that they are to go and may never enter the place again.

It also raises other problems. As was mentioned previously, if you happen to be a successful Foreign Secretary in the House of Commons, you come up to the House of Lords. If, like my noble friend Lord Carrington, you have been a successful foreign secretary in the House of Lords, you will no longer be allowed to come into the House, not even to have a cup of tea. I believe that that is disgraceful, and I do not believe that your Lordships individually would ever wish that to happen.

It also raises a problem of what would happen in the case of Privy Counsellors. If you are a Lord Justice of Appeal, you are a Privy Counsellor; you are allowed to come here and sit on the steps of the Throne. If you are a hereditary Peer and a Privy Counsellor--and I should declare an interest in so far as I am one, but that is not the point--once this Bill is passed, you would not be allowed inside the Chamber again. Does that mean that you cannot sit on the steps of the Throne, which is one of the rights of a Privy Counsellor? If being a Privy Counsellor means that you can enter the building and sit on the steps of the Throne, does it mean that as soon as you move off the steps of the Throne you may not go to wash your hands or have a cup of tea, but that you have to find your way out of the front door as quickly as possible? If that is so, that is also pretty indecorous.

In that context, what happens with elder sons? They are allowed to sit on the steps of the Throne. Does it mean that elder sons will not be allowed to sit on the steps of the Throne? At the moment, as your Lordships know, Bishops and such people are allowed to come back and use the facilities of the House. It seems to me quite extraordinary that your Lordships' hereditary Peers should not be able to do so. I believe that that is wrong.

I know that there are some people who say that this is a matter for the House to consider and that it ought to be considered by the Privileges Committee or the Procedure Committee. I do not take that view. I feel that if an Act of Parliament says that people should be removed, that Act of Parliament should also say "but they can use the facilities of the House". However, I see that there is an argument for saying, as some people do, that it should be a matter for the Procedure Committee.

I wrote to the noble Lord the Lord Chairman of Committees and told him that I hoped he would propel this idea through the appropriate committee so that it could consider what should be done. I was surprised to have an answer today in which he said that he had no plans to put this to a committee and that it ought to be left to another Parliament at a later date. I do not believe that that is good enough. There is a problem. I understand that the Government want to get rid of hereditary Peers, to use the charming expression used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer.

However, there is a problem. Are people never to be allowed to come back here, whatever the circumstances--Privy Counsellors or not--and however good a service they have given? If that is a problem,

30 Jun 1999 : Column 320

someone has to resolve it one way or another. Either it ought to be resolved by an amendment or it ought to be resolved by one of the committees of the House. I do not say that I would be more than happy, but I would be happy, if whoever is to respond to the amendment could confirm that. I expect that it will be the noble Lord, Lord Williams, although I see that perhaps it may be the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. In that case, I may well get a different answer. I would be satisfied if he would agree that there is a problem here and that it ought to be resolved by one of the committees of the House. If he says no, and that there is no problem at all, I might take a different view. I beg to move.

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