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Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is always fun to listen to. It is interesting to note that when he says, "We've heard all this time and time again", he then makes another similar speech and we have to listen to his speeches time and time again. It is rather like a gramophone record on which the same old music is played. The noble Lord may find it rather boring listening to us, but we are fascinated to listen to him, even if it is a little repetitive.
Lord Richard: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, perhaps I may remind him that some records are more worth listening to than others, and more often.
Baroness David: Oh, get on with it!
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, the noble Baroness is, in this case at any rate, being rather unfair. The amendment tabled by the noble Viscount Lord Mountgarret, and Amendment No. 68, might have the effect of delay, but there is a real issue behind it. As your Lordships may know, a Motion has been tabled in my name to refer the question of the status of the Writ of Summons to the Committee for Privileges. It is the view of the Opposition Front Bench that there is genuine doubt about the legal effect of the Writ of Summons.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, perhaps I may finish what I was saying. There is genuine doubt in the view of the Opposition about the status of the Writ of Summons. Therefore, there may well be great weight behind these amendments tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Mountgarret. It would be wrong to say that they simply reflect an intention to delay, even though they may have that effect.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Mountgarret, said that the purpose of the amendment was to bring about delay. I entirely recognise what he said. It had the virtue of clarity and, in that particular context, absolute brevity. I quite understand his point. He wants delay because he would prefer that the Bill, as an Act, had effect at the end of this Parliament rather than the end of this Session. That is really the purpose and the point of the amendment; to leave out the words, "Session of". We do not want delay beyond the inevitable delay that has subsisted since 1911. I cannot enlarge upon that.
Viscount Mountgarret: My Lords, that is not a very good argument put forward by the noble Lord. Too much play is put on the word "delay". The fact is that delaying, if that is the word which the Labour Party wish to use, enables the sovereign's writ to be honoured. That is far more to the point. It is with that that we are concerned. I have heard nothing to persuade me that it is anything but entirely correct to wait until the end of this Parliament before the Bill is enacted.
Having said that, I have listened carefully to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. It would be far better for a layman such as myself to try to bring these points to the fore at this stage but to allow experienced and professional politicians to put their point, with the assistance of everything they have at their disposal, to the Committee for Privileges. I can only say, from the bottom of my heart, that I wish them well.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Mountgarret, for giving way. I have a sense of resistance to the description of being a professional politician. I regard myself as very much a part-time politician and hope that the noble Viscount will accept that.
Viscount Mountgarret: My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. It was a bad description. He is an experienced Member of your Lordships' House who understands the workings infinitely better than I, though I have been here for a long time. I am rather like the Bourbons; I have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Jay of Paddington moved Amendment No. 67A:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Jay of Paddington moved Amendment No. 68A:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness could explain a little of the purport of this amendment. I have looked at it. I do not expect her to speak at any great length, but a little clue as to what it means would be greatly appreciated.
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment at an earlier stage of the Report proceedings. I can briefly explain to the noble Lord that Amendment No. 68A ensures that an excepted Peer, identified as such by the end of this Session, will not need a new Writ of Summons. His current one will remain valid. However, any Peer who is excepted after the end of this Session of Parliament needs to receive a new Writ of Summons.
There is no reason to delay this amendment until Third Reading. It is internally consistent with the Bill, including Clause 2, and it is necessary to keep it in the Bill to maintain that consistency. Not to have it in the Bill would leave the Bill in an inconsistent mess?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, does that mean that the Bill is in an inconsistent mess?
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I said precisely the opposite. I said not to have the amendment in the Bill would leave the provisions around the excepted Peers in an inconsistent mess. I thought that was clear.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, perhaps I too can ask a question. Has the noble Baroness taken advice on hybridity, given that similar classes of Peers are being treated differently in the course of this Bill and with the introduction of this amendment?
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, we have taken a great deal of advice on this subject and my noble friend Lord Williams of Mostyn replied on several occasions to points made about this.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, I must point out to the House that if Amendment No. 69 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 70.
[Amendments Nos. 69 to 73 not moved.]
Clause 6 [Interpretation and short title]:
Baroness Jay of Paddington moved Amendment No. 74A:
Page 2, line 4, leave out ("it") and insert ("this Act").
Page 2, line 6, at end insert ("unless it has been issued to a person who, at the end of the Session, is excepted from section 1 by virtue of section 2").
Before the schedule, insert the following new schedule--
1. In section 1(2) of the Peerage Act 1963 (disclaimer of certain hereditary peerages) for the words from "has" to the end there shall be substituted the words "is excepted from section 1 of the House of Lords Act 1999 by virtue of section 2 of that Act".
2. In section 1 of the Recess Elections Act 1975 (issue of warrants for making out writs to replace members of the House of Commons whose seats have become vacant), in--
(a) subsection (1)(a), and
(b) paragraph (a) of the definition of "certificate of vacancy" in subsection (2),
for the words "become a peer" there shall be substituted the words "become disqualified as a peer for membership of the House of Commons".
3. In Schedule 1 to that Act (certificate of vacancy), for the words "has become a peer of Parliament" there shall be substituted the words "has become disqualified as a peer for membership of the House of Commons".").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I must point out that if Amendment No. 76 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 76A and 78.
Baroness Jay of Paddington moved Amendment No. 76A:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I must point out that if Amendment No. 77 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 78.
Baroness Jay of Paddington moved Amendment No. 77:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment has already been spoken to. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 78A to 78D not moved.]
Preamble:
Page 3, line 4, column 3, leave out from ("1") to ("(3)") in line 7.
Page 3, column 3, leave out line 18 and insert ("Section 5").
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