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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, let me address the argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, in support of his amendment. He asks the House to delay the implementation of the Bill from the end of this Session until the end of the Parliament, a delay of potentially in excess of two years. What

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reason does he give for that? He gives two reasons. First he says "common humanity requires it" because hereditary Peers, who will be removed by the Bill from sitting and voting, did not have the opportunity of voting for an MP in the other place. He said that that is unfair; that it is wrong that they should not be represented. Should the Bill go forward in its present form the hereditary Peers--unlike practically everyone else in this country--will have one representative in Parliament to 10 hereditary Peers. In those circumstances, it seems odd that it can be seriously suggested that common humanity requires their representation.

The noble Lord's second argument in support of his amendment is that there should be no stage one before stage two. His amendment has nothing whatever to do with stage two. The implementation of the Bill does not depend upon stage two coming into force but only upon the end of the Parliament being reached. So his second argument is not touched by the amendment.

In his third, disconnected, point in support of his amendment, the noble Lord questioned whether we can be sure that the other place will uphold the Weatherill amendment. As has been repeatedly said, the Weatherill amendment was agreed to by the Government in exchange for obtaining in substance their legislative programme during the course of this Parliamentary Session. It is for the other place to judge whether the agreement made by the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, is upheld.

In regard to the fourth point in support of the noble Lord's amendment, he said that one cannot trust the Government because an electoral college has been set up to select the mayoral candidate for London. The electoral college set up to select the mayoral candidate for London allows all sections of the party to be represented in the ballot. With great respect to the noble Lord, that is a wholly fallacious basis on which to say the Government cannot be trusted in relation to the undertakings they have given in relation to the appointments commission--undertakings which the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, accepted at an earlier stage of the debate; undertakings that he accepted in the making of the agreement.

When considering the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, I ask the House to consider whether there has been any basis advanced to justify the up to two-and-a-half year delay that he proposes. Upon analysis, there is absolutely none. I ask the House to reject the amendments.

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I shall be as brief as I possibly can. To my enormous surprise, a simple amendment has been debated for an hour and a half. That is vastly in excess of what I expected; I am absolutely astounded.

I am grateful for the support which has been given by a number of noble Lords, not least from the Cross-Benches by the noble Lords, Lord Harris and Lord Chalfont.

We heard an extraordinary number of Second Reading and Third Reading speeches, which were either being made or remade, or perhaps some of them

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have been made several times. We even had the experience of some advice from Bucharest on democracy. If I may say so, the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, slightly misunderstood the point I was making about the breach of faith. I think he has probably now picked-up that point from others during the course of the debate.

I was slightly surprised that the noble Lord claimed that the Weatherill amendment was the work of my noble friend Lord Cranborne, and he alone. Who on earth else was there at No. 10 Downing Street? Who was my noble friend talking to when the Weatherill amendment proposal came out? Good gracious me, was it his work alone? I heard a number of others mentioned as being there--the Prime Minister, Mr Campbell and all kinds of other distinguished people. That was a very extraordinary point.

If I may say to my noble friends who spoke about the ECHR, I can understand their view that the deprivation of the rights of hereditary Peers was probably not a sufficient misuse of power to be illegal. It is a wonderful example of the housemaid's baby not merely being rather small, but because it will be dead before long one does not have to mind too much about it.

I believe that I have dealt with the major points that have been raised. The noble and learned Lord who replied to the debate on the amendment was rather hurt that I questioned the procedures adopted by his party for selecting its candidate for the London mayoralty. I do not believe that my comments were any more or less relevant to the debate than a number of other speeches that have been made; perhaps they were a little more relevant, but not by very much. However, the noble and learned Lord should understand that if there are 30 people in London who think that that is a fair and democratic way of doing business, there must be some 10 of them sitting on the Front Bench opposite. Goodness only knows where the other 20 are, but I think very few people have met them. Let us be honest; that has been all about fixing up the candidacy. That is why we mistrust this Government.

I regret that there has been so much hurt over the issue of the lack of trust between the Opposition and the Government. I regret that some hard words have passed here and there this evening. However, when listening recently to the Prime Minister, I heard in my mind the echo of two great speeches of the 1945 Labour Government: "We are the masters now", and, "Lower than vermin".

I accept that, on the whole, hereditary Peers are Conservatives, and therefore, according to the Prime Minister, they are of a class that should be extinguished. We know that Conservatives are to blame for all the evils in this world. They are to blame

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for resistance to trades union reform. They are to blame for Stalin's purges, the murder of Stephen Lawrence--

Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Tebbit: Even recently I find, according to the Prime Minister, that the hard men of the IRA are the men who are Conservatives. If that was so, they misdirected themselves as to which party conference they should have gone to a few years ago.

As enough noble Lords in the House have heard the debate and probably want to go to dinner, it might be wise if I take the feeling of the House. Therefore, I shall take the amendment to a Division.

8.12 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 18) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 154; Not-Contents, 238.

Division No. 2


Ailsa, M.
Alanbrooke, V.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Annaly, L.
Arlington, B.
Arran, E.
Ashbourne, L.
Balfour of Inchrye, L.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Bell, L.
Biddulph, L.
Blyth, L.
Boston, L.
Buccleuch and Queensberry, D.
Burton, L.
Byron, L.
Cadman, L.
Calverley, L.
Carew, L.
Chalfont, L. [Teller]
Chesham, L.
Chilston, V.
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L.
Clinton, L.
Clitheroe, L.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Coleraine, L.
Coleridge, L.
Cowdray, V.
Craigmyle, L.
Cross, V.
Cunliffe, L.
Dartmouth, E.
De La Warr, E.
Denbigh, E.
Derwent, L.
Devonport, V.
Donegall, M.
Dudley, E.
Dundee, E.
Dunrossil, V.
Ellenborough, L.
Falmouth, V.
Fisher, L.
Forester, L.
Gage, V.
Gainford, L.
Gisborough, L.
Gormanston, V.
Grantley, L.
Gray, L.
Gretton, L.
Grey, E.
Halifax, E.
Hambro, L.
Hamilton of Dalzell, L.
Hampden, V.
Hankey, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hawke, L.
Head, V.
Hemphill, L.
Hesketh, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hothfield, L.
Iddesleigh, E.
Iliffe, L.
Inchcape, E.
Ironside, L.
Iveagh, E.
Jeffreys, L.
Keyes, L.
Killearn, L.
Lansdowne, M.
Lauderdale, E.
Lawrence, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Leathers, V.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.
Long, V.
Lonsdale, E.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lytton, E.
Macclesfield, E.
Macpherson of Drumochter, L.
Marks of Broughton, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Milverton, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monk Bretton, L.
Monson, L.
Moran, L.
Morris, L.
Morton, E.
Mountevans, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Moyne, L.
Munster, E.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Napier of Magdala, L.
Naseby, L.
Newall, L.
Norrie, L.
Norton, L.
Nunburnholme, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L. [Teller]
Pembroke and Montgomery, E.
Plumb, L.
Rennell, L.
Renwick, L.
Romney, E.
St. Germans, E.
Saint Levan, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandford, L.
Sandys, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Spens, L.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Strathalmond, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Sudeley, L.
Suffolk and Berkshire, E.
Swansea, L.
Swinton, E.
Tebbit, L.
Temple of Stowe, E.
Teynham, L.
Torphichen, L.
Torrington, V.
Trenchard, V.
Verulam, E.
Waterford, M.
Wedgwood, L.
Weir, V.
Westmorland, E.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Winchester, M.
Wise, L.
Woolton, E.
Wrenbury, L.
Wynford, L.
Yarborough, E.
Zouche of Haryngworth, L.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Amos, B.
Annan, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Attenborough, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carlisle, Bp.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Congleton, L.
Crawley, B.
Cromartie, E.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Diamond, L.
Dinevor, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Ewing of Kirkford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Geraint, L.
Gifford, L.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glanusk, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Greene of Harrow Weald, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hacking, L.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Meston, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Montague of Oxford, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Northfield, L.
Ogmore, L.
Orme, L.
Patel, L.
Paul, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Warsaw, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shepherd, L.
Sheppard of Liverpool, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stair, E.
Stern, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Templeman, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Thurlow, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Dartington, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

26 Oct 1999 : Column 247

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I beg to move that further proceedings after Third Reading be now adjourned. In moving this Motion, perhaps I may suggest that the House does not return to this business before 9.25 p.m.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

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