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Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord. We accept that before those powers become exercisable the Secretary of State will require such powers, but they continue. The Bill does not say that those powers will end. The appointments will continue. The point I sought to make was that when the mayor appeared these appointments might continue half-way through or during his term. This provision does not in any way indicate a limit.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, with the leave of the House, can the Minister confirm that in many cases appointments would be made of those who are currently employees of the bodies to be subsumed by the new authority, and that if there were to be a hiatus in their employment not only would they lose their employment rights but they would suffer at that time because of a gap in their employment? If the Minister could give an assurance about limiting the appointments to, say, employees of the London Planning Advisory Committee, the London Research Centre and so on many Members of this House would feel a good deal more comfortable.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, perhaps that clarifies the position. Clearly, the mayor will take on employees of all kinds in the predecessor bodies. All this provision does is to say: first, that in the hiatus period when nobody would otherwise be the employer these people are effectively employed by the Secretary of State; and, secondly, that if there are additional appointments they will be made by the Secretary of State in that period. What happens to those employees thereafter, as with all other employees whom the mayor inherits, is a matter for the mayor and the personnel practices of the Greater

1 Nov 1999 : Column 679

London Authority. Appointments will therefore continue unless and until they are terminated by the new authority, but in any case those concerned are in no different position from appointees of the predecessor bodies.

I gave the assurance earlier that any such appointments made in this hiatus period would be short term so far as concerns the senior staff. To illustrate the point raised by the noble Baroness, the staff of the London Research Unit would be among the appointments. I believe that we are reading too much into the clause--or not enough. We are reading too much in the suggestion that we are conjuring up the phantom of the Secretary of State appointing the whole of the staff of the GLA before the mayor has his foot in the door. It is fairly clear that this is a much more limited and short-term function. Subsection (1) simply gives the Secretary of State the powers to cover the hiatus period.

There is a clear termination date; and there is a clear continuity implied as a result of the insertion of this clause. Without this clause, there would be no continuity of employment for a number of people. London Transport is not affected by the clause. The preparation time which the transitional committee and the consultation document referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, would not be able to occur. Were noble Lords not prepared to accept the clause, we should be in a serious limbo for the period immediately before the GLA comes into operation. That would be a pretty damaging thing for this House to do. I hope, therefore, that the noble Baroness will not pursue her opposition to the new clause.

9.57 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 97) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 99; Not-Contents, 36.

Division No. 5


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McCarthy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNair, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Monkswell, L.
Nicol, B.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Simon, V.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.


Ampthill, L.
Annaly, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Belstead, L.
Biddulph, L.
Blatch, B.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Cross, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Fookes, B.
Goschen, V.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hood, V.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Mancroft, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Palmer, L.
Rowallan, L.
Seccombe, B.
Trenchard, V.
Weir, V.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

1 Nov 1999 : Column 680

10.6 p.m.

Clause 399 [Transfers of property, rights or liabilities]:

Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 98:

Page 237, line 18, at end insert--
("( ) London Regional Transport or any subsidiary of London Regional Transport;").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving the amendment, I shall speak also to the other amendments relating to Clause 399 which clarify and amend the provisions which may be included in, and relate to the effect of, transfer or pension instruments relating to the establishment of the new bodies. Transfer of assets, rights and liabilities to the GLA will be a major exercise. In preparing these amendments we have worked closely with LRT and other bodies which will be involved in the transfer process. I beg to move.

1 Nov 1999 : Column 681

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 99 to 102:

Page 237, line 31, at end insert--
("( ) any company all the shares in which are held by a Minister of the Crown;").
Page 237, line 35, at end insert--
("( ) the Commission for the New Towns;").
Page 238, line 16, leave out ("the creation of rights or liabilities") and insert--
("(a) the grant or creation of an estate or interest in, or right over, any land or other property,
(b) the grant or creation of any other rights, or
(c) the imposition of liabilities,
in favour of, or on, any body or person falling within subsection (2) above or any body or person falling within subsection (3) above").
Page 238, line 16, at end insert--
("( ) An order under subsection (1) above may make provision for transfers to take effect at such time of day as may be specified in the order.").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 400 [Transfer schemes]:

Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 103:

Page 239, line 2, at end insert--
("( ) A scheme under subsection (1) or (2) above may make any provision that may be made by order under subsection (1) of section 399 above.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 401 [Contracts of employment etc.]:

Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 104:

Page 239, line 26, at end insert--
("( ) In this section--
(a) any reference to anything made or done by or in relation to the transferor includes a reference to anything which is treated by virtue of any enactment as having been made or done by or in relation to the transferor; and
(b) any reference to an employee's period of employment with the transferor shall be construed accordingly.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 402 [Pensions]:

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