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Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: I am relieved to see my noble friend Lord Stone of Blackheath return to his place, in case I need his linguistic skill from his many years living in the Principality.

Amendment No. 153 is unduly restrictive and at odds with the existing arrangements for members of the FEFC for Wales and Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. It is right and fair that members of the CETW receive salaries for their important task. They have an important job and we expect them to devote considerable energy and time to their responsibilities. An inability to pay salaries may limit the range of talented people from all parts of the community that we want to attract to those posts. Determination by the National Assembly provides a proper safeguard against inappropriate terms being set.

Amendment No. 154 would affect CETW staff, who will be public servants working for an Assembly-sponsored public body. I hope that my words will reassure the noble Lord, Lord Roberts. While detailed terms and conditions of its staff will be for the CETW to determine, it is surely right that the National Assembly should be able to ensure that these terms and conditions are in line with public sector policies. This is a well-established principle for other Assembly-sponsored public bodies and replicates provisions made in respect of the FEFC for Wales by the Further and Higher Education Act 1992, which I am sure the noble Lord will remember.

As regards Amendment No. 155, it is right that a CETW member with an interest should disclose it when such matters are discussed, and should normally be barred from taking part in relevant deliberations and decisions in which he or she may have an interest. But an unqualified application of the provisions could lead to perverse consequences; for example, an FE college principal on the CETW being unable to take part in general debates on priorities for resource allocation because the outcome would inevitably have some impact on his or her college.

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Therefore, there should be a provision for the National Assembly to lift such a bar on an individual member where it judges this to be sensible. This is standard provision in legislation relating to non-departmental and Assembly-sponsored bodies. The noble Lord may wish to look, for example, at Schedule 2 to the Regional Development Agencies Act 1998. It is right that this power should be with the National Assembly, rather than with the CETW in order to ensure that such decisions are made in a detached and considered way. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment and not move the others grouped with it.

11.45 p.m.

Lord Roberts of Conwy: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. I said at the outset of my remarks that Amendment No. 153 was a probing amendment. I am at least wiser to the extent that I now know that members of the council will be salaried or in receipt of fees. I am equally glad to have her assurance that it is the terms and conditions of appointments and employment which will be supervised by the Assembly. I also fully appreciate the Minister's explanation of the qualification in the subparagraph referred to in Amendment No. 155 and the example that she gave of the FE college principal being inhibited in discussion, for example, of overall budgeting for FE colleges in Wales. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 154 and 155 not moved.]

Schedule 4 agreed to.

Clause 31 [Education and training for persons aged 16 to 19]:

[Amendments Nos. 156 to 159 not moved.]

Clause 31 agreed to.

Clause 32 [Education and training for persons over 19]:

[Amendment No. 160 not moved.]

Clause 32 agreed to.

Clause 33 [Encouragement of education and training]:

Lord Roberts of Conwy moved Amendment No. 161:

    Page 14, line 11, at end insert--

("( ) promote equality of opportunity between disabled and non-disabled people in education and training and all support services covering transition").

The noble Lord said: I move the amendment formally on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth. I believe that it was included in an earlier group of amendments which we discussed. It was debated as part of the group of amendments headed by Amendment No. 152. That grouping included Amendments Nos. 156 to 164.

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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham and Vaux): Amendments Nos. 156 to 164 were debated much earlier on in the proceedings. Does the noble Lord wish to move this amendment formally?

Lord Roberts of Conway: I have done so.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My understanding is that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, has spoken to this amendment but has accepted that the first amendment grouped with it was not moved. My understanding was that this amendment was not to be moved.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Is the amendment not moved?

Lord Roberts of Conwy: Not moved.

Clause 33 agreed to.

Clause 34 [Provision of financial resources]:

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 162:

    Page 14, line 32, leave out ("or advice") and insert (", advice or guidance").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 163:

    Page 14, line 33, at end insert ("(including employment)").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 35 to 38 agreed to.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 164:

    After Clause 38, insert the following new clause--


(" .--(1) The Council may appoint a person to be a member of the governing body of an institution which--
(a) falls within the further education sector (within the meaning given by section 91(3) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992), and
(b) mainly serves the population of Wales.
(2) But no more than two members of the governing body of a given institution may at any given time have been appointed under this section.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Roberts of Conwy moved Amendment No. 165:

    After Clause 38, insert the following new clause--


(" .--(1) The Council may secure the provision of facilities for the gaining of work experience by young persons receiving education.

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(2) The Council may secure the provision of facilities designed to form links between (on the one hand) employers and (on the other) persons falling within subsection (3).
(3) The persons falling within this subsection are--
(a) persons who provide education or training, and
(b) persons who receive it and who have not attained the age of 19.
(4) A person is a young person in the period which--
(a) starts with the beginning of the year in which he attains the age of 15, and
(b) ends with the end of the year in which he attains the age of 19.
(5) A year is a year beginning with 1 September.").

The noble Lord said: The Committee will not have failed to notice that certain clauses relating to the English council have been left out of Part II which establishes the council for Wales. This particular Amendment No. 165 refers to a new clause which is entitled,

    "Links between education and training and employment: Wales".

It is clearly an adaptation of Clause 8 in the English part of the Bill. I have adapted it to Welsh circumstances. I understand that the Government are considering whether to insert this clause or a similar measure at a later stage in our proceedings. If they believe that the clause needs adaptation, so be it. For my part, I would be content with it as it stands. I believe that the contents of the clause should apply to Wales as well as to England. I am bound to say that this clause led to an earlier debate and there was some concern expressed by my noble friend Lady Blatch about the open-ended nature of the power contained within the clause relating to further education governors. I think we will leave that to one side for the moment. I shall concentrate on the Government's response to this replica of Clause 8 which is entitled, as I have said,

    "Links between education and training and employment: Wales".

I beg to move.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: I ought to declare an interest before speaking to this amendment. I have members of my family who currently benefit from work experience placement schemes in Wales.

Work experience placements in Wales will be the responsibility of the careers service companies under contract to the National Assembly. We have already made provision in Clause 34 for the CETW to provide funding support to foster links between employers and those who provide or receive post-16 education and training. I hope therefore that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I support the Government in their opposition to this amendment. Again it is a matter that has already been covered by the National Assembly in Wales. It has considered the

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matter and it is satisfied with the provisions made in Clause 34 with regard to financial provision and its view should prevail.

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