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Lord Saatchi: My Lords, I return to what the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said. He was interested to know

18 May 2000 : Column 374

why we were so persistent--I believe he said "so tiring"--on the subject of UK competitiveness. I want to explain that by trying to thread together our first amendment, our second amendment and Clause 2(3)(e) of the Bill, which he read out, relating to,

    "the desirability of maintaining the competitive position of the United Kingdom".

In doing so, I can also deal with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, about a possible contradiction between the first and second amendments.

Our interest in the first amendment is illustrated precisely by the matters dealt with in the second amendment. The UK financial services industry is a modern miracle. It is unique. To my knowledge, it is the only UK industry in which Britain leads a global market. We believe that that is the strength of our position. The chairman of the London Stock Exchange, the jewel at the heart of this great industry, tells us that Britain could not go it alone. That means that there is a serious question mark over the UK's competitiveness in this industry, despite what appears to be its dominant position.

I have no doubt that what the chairman of the Stock Exchange said is true. He is explaining to us that mergers of stock exchanges will follow in the train of mergers of companies. There will probably be many of them. Sometimes such mergers will be with stock exchanges that have an easier regulatory regime and sometimes with stock exchanges that have a harder regulatory regime. In their own interests, people will pick and choose which bit suits them best. In that process, somebody will have to be responsible for ensuring that British companies are not placed at a disadvantage by the curious new situation.

That brings me to the point made about the contradiction. If there is a contradiction, let me draw out a contradiction that is in the Bill as it stands. At some stage during our debates I recall the Minister explaining that the reason why it was inappropriate to raise up the competition objective--to elevate it as the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said--was that other regulators in other countries would consider it offensive for the FSA, with which they were dealing, to have in the Bill an objective to maintain competitiveness, or any words that suggested that it had a duty to advance the interests of the United Kingdom. That was put forward as a reason not to elevate the competition objective.

What shall we make of the contradiction of the FSA which has to have regard to,

    "the desirability of maintaining the competitive position of the United Kingdom"--

as the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, says? What will it do, as the listing authority of a combined exchange of two countries, or three countries or five countries? How can it be the listing authority for the exchanges of several countries and have the aim of looking after the competitive position of the United Kingdom?

The problem is inherent in the Bill. That is the heart of what we are trying to say with these amendments. The Bill has not anticipated the major change that is

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taking place before our eyes. We believe that our amendments are important in order to give the Government a little more time--perhaps while the Bill is in the Commons--to think about the implications of these huge changes. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Saatchi moved Amendment No. 2:

    Page 2, line 37, at end insert--

("(3) Maintaining confidence in the financial system includes ensuring so far as is practicable that markets and exchanges which operate both in the United Kingdom and in another country or territory and members of those markets and exchanges are regulated to common standards and that the overseas regulator in the relevant country or territory adopts measures consistent with those under this Act for the prevention and prohibition of market abuse in relation to those markets and exchanges.
(4) "Overseas regulator" has the same meaning as in section 190.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to Amendment 2 when speaking to Amendment No. 1. I beg to move.

4.18 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 2) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 128; Not-Contents, 144.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Bell, L.
Belstead, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowdrey of Tonbridge, L.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Feldman, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Gibson, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Greenway, L.
Hanham, B
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kelvedon, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Norfolk, D.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Onslow of Woking, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saatchi, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson, L.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L. [Teller]
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Diamond, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Jacobs, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Laird, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Serota, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wigoder, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

18 May 2000 : Column 377

4.28 p.m.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 3:

    After Clause 6 insert the following new Clause--

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