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Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very thorough reply. I derive some comfort from what he said about the prospect of delegated legislation with respect to the latter amendments.
As regards the main amendment to Clause 19, I continue to think that this would be better dealt with on the face of the Bill. The Minister's interpretation of that clause gave us some hope to think that statements of fact will be seen in their proper context. Although I should like to press him further, I feel that, in all the circumstances, the wisest thing for me to do would be to ask leave to withdraw this amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24 [Agreements made by unauthorised persons]:
Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 10:
- Page 10, line 45, leave out ("("the purchaser")").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 11:
- Page 11, line 10, leave out ("deposit-taking") and insert ("accepting deposits").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 11, I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 13, 15, 16, 30 to 34, 48 to 55, 75 to 79, 101 to 135, 149, 150, 168, 169 and 176 to 192. Those of your Lordships who are quicker than I will already have added those up to 78 in all. It is a rather large
group and it demonstrates the difficulties that arise--incidentally, it also illustrates how the number of individual amendments can be a highly misleading guide to assessing the extent to which a Bill has been substantively amended--with a Bill of this size when a minor technical matter has to be addressed.The two main issues which this group of amendments seeks to address are, first, to ensure that the way in which certain matters relating to insurance and deposits are described in the Bill is consistent with the structure of the Bill; and, secondly, to enable the repeal of the Insurance Companies Act 1982. Your Lordships will be happy to hear that I do not intend to go through each of the 78 amendments in turn but that I shall deal with them, as it were, by subject matter.
Under deposits, the change of references to deposit- taking in the five Amendments Nos. 11, 13, 15, 16 and 169 are--famous last words--easily explained. At the moment, the Bill refers in some places to "deposit-taking" and in others to "accepting deposits". We think it is pretty clear that these terms are intended to have the same meaning. However, by ensuring that the same term is used throughout, we remove the scope for someone to argue that accepting deposits and deposit-taking have different meanings. We have therefore standardised references to the term that most neatly meets the structure of the Bill.
Our main difficulty with the references to insurance in the Bill--I am sorry that there are so many of them--is that they all depend on definitions in the Insurance Companies Act 1982. It has always been our intention that the 1982 Act should be repealed in its entirety. Unfortunately, it has taken us a while to devise a suitable mechanism for achieving the desired result in a way that is consistent with the structure of the Bill, under which particular regulated activities will be defined off the face of the Bill.
Half a dozen of the amendments change references to "dealing" in contracts of insurance to "effecting or carrying out" such contracts. Not only does this more accurately describe the activity we are seeking to capture, but it also introduces consistency throughout the Bill and removes scope for argument about whether they were intended to mean the same, or different, things.
The next batch of 10 or so amendments removes the references to "insurance business" and inserts in their place references to,
- "the effecting and carrying out of contracts of insurance".
- "business which consists of the effecting or carrying out of contracts of insurance".
The next batch of amendments sets out changes needed--these account for about half the amendments in the group--to remove references to "insurance companies". "Insurance company" is a term of art borrowed from the very different regulatory structure of the Insurance Companies Act 1982. In that Act its meaning is not limited to companies: indeed, individuals and one industrial and provident society fall within that definition. It also includes any person carrying on insurance business, whether or not they are authorised to do so.
Our approach therefore has been either to refer an authorised person with permission to effect or carry out contracts of insurance, or simply to refer to an insurer which will be defined in regulations made by the Treasury in a particular context. In some cases, for example, the insolvency provisions, it will be necessary to limit the application of certain provisions to companies or to authorised persons. In other cases, a wider meaning will be necessary.
The final substantive matter dealt with in this group is the introduction of the new clause after Clause 415. This defines the concepts of "contracts of insurance", "reinsurance" and contracts of particular types of insurance by reference to Clause 20 and Schedule 2. This makes it clear that the references in the Bill are to have the same meanings as in the order. If necessary, the definitions could be amplified in secondary legislation under the provisions of Part III of Schedule 2.
The new clause also confers on the Treasury power by order to define certain other insurance-related terms: namely, "policy" and "policy-holder" and power by regulations to determine the law applicable to prescribed classes of insurance contracts.
There are also a few amendments that make very minor drafting or technical changes, many of which are intended to bring the relevant provisions into line with the changes I have already described. They include, for example, Amendment No. 101 to Clause 340, which concerns a record of authorised persons, where we have just spotted a mistake in a definition in subsection (7). When I say "just" I do not mean just now but earlier on, during the period between Report and today's proceedings. I wonder whether anyone else spotted that mistake too! The definition should have been of an "authorised unit trust scheme".
Finally, the four amendments to Clause 137 seek to ensure that the powers under that clause which relate to the creation of charges will operate properly in Scotland. As the clause stands, the word "charge" could be taken to have a different meaning here from the meaning given in Clause 109(15). Also, without the amendment in relation to Scotland, the definition would have a narrower meaning than it does for the rest of the United Kingdom. We are therefore correcting that.
As I said at the beginning, these amendments are technical and they appear to be quite insignificant, but we believe that they are necessary to ensure that the Bill works properly. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 25 [Agreements made through unauthorised persons]:
Lord Bach moved Amendments Nos. 12 and 13:
- Page 11, line 17, leave out ("("the purchaser")").
- Page 11, line 27, leave out ("deposit-taking") and insert ("accepting deposits").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 26 [Agreements made unenforceable by section 24 or 25]:
Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 14:
- Page 12, line 8, leave out ("other party") and insert ("person against whom the agreement is unenforceable").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 27 [Deposit-taking in breach of general prohibition]:
Lord Bach moved Amendments Nos. 15, 16 and 17 en bloc:
- Page 12, line 22, leave out ("deposit-taking") and insert ("accepting deposits").
- Page 12, line 35, leave out ("deposit-taking") and insert ("accepting deposits").
- Page 12, line 36, leave out subsection (6).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move these three amendments en bloc.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 28 [Enforceability of agreements resulting from unlawful communications]:
Lord Bach moved Amendments Nos. 18 and 19:
- Page 12, line 44, at end insert ("; and
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
"controlled investment" has the same meaning as in section 19").
Page 13, line 9, leave out ("an") and insert ("a controlled").
5.15 p.m.
Clause 34 [Persons authorised as a result of paragraph 1(1) of Schedule 5]:
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