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Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, perhaps I may respond on behalf of the Opposition. The noble and learned Lord quoted his noble and learned friend as saying that these provisions push the law to its limits.

20 Jun 2000 : Column 195

However, he correctly stated that the Government are prepared to do so only as regards Northern Ireland, implying that Northern Ireland terrorism is worse than and different from other forms of terrorism in other parts of the world. But a large part of the point of the Bill is to extend the Northern Ireland laws against terrorism to the whole of the UK. It is to take the legal lessons that we have learnt in fighting terrorism in Northern Ireland and to apply them to the undoubted growth of terrorism in the rest of the world in respect of other causes.

We all know of the difficulty of obtaining convictions in Northern Ireland. There are two reasons for that. The first is the intimidation of jurors and witnesses which led to the Diplock courts. The second is the ability of trained terrorists to resist the legal process; to resist the police in their interrogations and to use every part of the law in favour of their case. Those are the lessons that we have learnt in fighting terrorism in Northern Ireland. It therefore seems to us right that Amendment No. 20, which is based on Clause 109, should extend to the other serious offences in Part VI.

Amendment No. 21 is based on Clause 111 and deals with the forfeiture of money and property as discussed on previous occasions. Again, in relation to the very serious offences dealt with in Part VI, we believe that the provisions should apply to all kinds of terrorist and not only to those in Northern Ireland. If we are to learn the lessons of Northern Ireland in dealing with all types of terrorism in the world, then those provisions form part of the lessons. I believe that the House should support my noble friend Lord Glentoran in Amendment No. 20.

5.40 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 20) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 87; Not-Contents, 163.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tenby, V.
Tugendhat, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McCarthy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

20 Jun 2000 : Column 197

Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 21.

After Clause 64, insert the following new clause--

FORFEITURE ORDERS: OFFENCES UNDER THIS PART
(" .--(1) This section applies if a person is charged with an offence under this Part.
(2) The court by or before which the person is convicted may order the forfeiture of any money or other property if--
(a) he had it in his possession or under his control at the time of the offence, and
(b) it has been used in connection with the alleged offence under this Part or the court believes that it may be used in that connection unless it is forfeited.
(3) Before making an order under this section the court must give an opportunity to be heard to any person, other than the convicted person, who claims to be the owner of or otherwise interested in anything which can be forfeited under this section.
(4) A question arising as to whether subsection (1) or (2)(a) or (b) is satisfied shall be determined on the balance of probabilities.
(5) Schedule 4 shall apply (with the necessary modifications) in relation to orders under this section as it applies in relation to orders made under section 23.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move.

5.50 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 21) shall be agreed to?

20 Jun 2000 : Column 198

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 81; Not-Contents, 156.

Division No. 3

CONTENTS
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Ferrers, E.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hogg, B.
Hooper, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tenby, V.
Tugendhat, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Jeger, B.
Judd, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Longford, E.
McCarthy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Newby, L.
Nicol, B.
Northover, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

20 Jun 2000 : Column 199

6 p.m.

Clause 107 [Specified organisations: interpretation]:

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