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Division No. 1


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller]
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L. [Teller]
Higgins, L.
Hooson, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Kingsland, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
McNally, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Waddington, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Younger of Leckie, V.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gale, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Laird, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molloy, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Paul, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

13 Jul 2000 : Column 419

6.30 p.m.

Lord Lucas moved Amendment No 65:

    Page 55, line 50, leave out ("the key itself") and insert ("an actual key").

13 Jul 2000 : Column 420

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment also addresses a grammatical oddity in the Bill as it is currently drafted. Clause 48(3) now requires the disclosure of any key of a "noticee's" choice; hence the words "the key itself" are no longer appropriate and should be replaced by the words in the amendment. I beg to move.

Viscount Astor: My Lords, I support my noble friend's amendment. The wording that he suggests appears to be sensible when one considers the detail of the Bill.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, yesterday the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, achieved what I believe he said was a first ever drafting point over parliamentary counsel. I am afraid that on this occasion we do not feel able to accept the noble Lord's suggestion, precise though it may be.

I hope that the policy behind Clause 48(1) is clear. It is perhaps worth spelling it out. A Section 47 notice may not specify that only the key to the relevant protected information, as opposed to the plaintext, is sufficient unless one of the persons listed in paragraphs (a) and (b) has given a direction that only the key itself will do. The question the amendment poses is whether the reference should be to "the key itself" or to "an actual key". We are happy to provide reassurance that subsections (5) and (6) apply in every situation to which it refers: a person may choose any key, or combination of keys, where that key, or combination of keys, is sufficient to access the information and render it intelligible. Therefore, the reference to "the key" has to be read with those provisions firmly in mind.

With the greatest respect to the noble Lord, we prefer the wording in the Bill to his suggested amendment. We think that the word "actual" is probably redundant. Abandoning "the key" would mean consequential amendments in Clause 48. There is nothing between us in substance. I appreciate the spirit in which the noble Lord tabled the amendment. However, I politely suggest that he withdraws it.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, we are back to normality! I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 66:

    Page 55, line 50, at end insert--

("(1A) A direction for the purposes of subsection (1) by the police, the customs and excise or a member of Her Majesty's forces shall not be given--
(a) in the case of a direction by the police, except by or with the permission of a chief officer of police;
(b) in the case of a direction by the customs and excise, except by or with the permission of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise; or
(c) in the case of a direction by a member of Her Majesty's forces, except by or with the permission of a person of or above the rank of brigadier or its equivalent.

13 Jul 2000 : Column 421

(1B) A permission given for the purposes of subsection (1A) by a chief officer of police, the Commissioners of Customs and Excise or a person of or above any such rank as is mentioned in paragraph (c) of that subsection must be given expressly in relation to the direction in question.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment has already been spoken to. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 67 and 68 not moved.]

Viscount Astor moved Amendment No. 69:

    Page 56, line 2, at end insert ("on reasonable grounds").

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, government Amendment No. 70 may go a long way to satisfy my concerns on Amendment No. 69. It may be helpful if I do not make a speech now and allow the Minister to discuss Amendment No. 70 on the condition that I can return to the issue. I beg to move.

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