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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I certainly agree with the latter comments of the noble Lord. I re-emphasise what I said in my first Answer: the Prime Minister intended to launch a debate on this subject and did so. We welcome contributions from all parliamentarians, particularly those who have had experience of "double hatting" in the past. It is a longer-term proposal. The next IGC is not likely until the middle of the next decade. The primary purpose is to reconnect national Parliaments with decision making in Europe, especially in the new areas of Europe--defence, crime and so on. We need to reflect on the details. Our inclination is that such a chamber would be small. But we are starting a process of dialogue. I know from debates in this House and in the other place that that dialogue will be vigorous, intense and well-informed.

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Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: My Lords, as my noble friend said, the Prime Minister intended to launch a debate rather than set a blue-print. But there is an example of a blue-print that is up and running now. I refer to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Western European Union. The great strength of that Parliamentary Assembly is that it brings in members from outside the European Union and from outside NATO as well. Those parliamentarians take part in a vigorous debate on defence matters. Does my noble friend see the Parliamentary Assembly of the WEU as a possible blue-print for a second chamber?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I agree that the WEU plays an extremely valuable role, but a second chamber is proposed for the medium term. For the moment, we are not proposing any change to the WEU assembly which, as my noble friend has rightly pointed out, undertakes very valuable work. This proposal is intended to open up discussion. Obviously we shall examine all the models that are already in place with a view to taking decisions on which new models to adopt which could take advantage of the best of the established systems.

Lord Marsh: My Lords, does the Minister believe that the European Parliament, as currently constituted, is an excellent example for parliamentarians everywhere?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I would certainly state that the European Parliament is a parliament of great value.

Lord Inglewood: My Lords, in bringing forward this proposal, has the Prime Minister secured support from specific leading parliamentarians in other member states, or is this simply an initiative of his own?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, this issue has been widely debated. The Prime Minister is spearheading a view that has been expressed by others and is shared by him. It is an important debate. That is because one of the issues that we must address is whether parliamentarians in nation states are as fully engaged in this process as they should be. We are examining the proposal as an option for the future.

Lord Tomlinson: My Lords--

Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords--

Lord Carter: My Lords, I believe that my noble friend Lord Tomlinson rose to speak first.

Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, if the objective of this proposal is to reconnect national parliaments with the process of decision-making in Europe, a number of actions should be taken in the short term, as well as possibly considering what should be done in the long term? That should include the need to keep parliaments better informed as regards what is happening in

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Europe. They should be involved far more in pre-legislative and well as post-legislative decisions on European issues. Does she further agree that, as a result, the national parliaments would then not feel so detached and the need for such a second chamber would diminish?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I understand the import of my noble friend's view. He is right to point out that we are seeking ways in which to reconnect parliamentarians. His view is one that has been strongly expressed and listened to by the Government on several occasions.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, we on this side of the House are strongly in favour of all measures to involve national parliaments more intimately in calling the European institutions to account. However, is the noble Baroness aware that this idea is not only not new--it has been suggested many times before--but that in fact it has been tried out before? That took place in the early 1990s when the decision was taken to experiment with the establishment of a European assizes, or assises. That took place in Rome. I have to tell the noble Baroness that it was a pretty good disaster. Surely we need to concentrate on finding the means by which your Lordships' House and the other place can further develop their already excellent machinery--that is particularly the case as regards your Lordships' House--for scrutinising and holding to account Community instruments? Is not this an area in which a great deal more could be done? Furthermore, would that not be far more in line with helping the nation states and their peoples to relate to the European Union rather than by inventing another airy-fairy central institution?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am disappointed that the noble Lord should so describe this proposal. I should remind him that we are now living in a different age. The experiment so vividly outlined by the noble Lord was mooted in a very different environment from that in which we now find ourselves. Although I know that it is difficult for Members of the Opposition to understand, Europe has moved on in an extremely progressive way. For that reason, with great openness we are considering changes which may benefit our nation and may be advantageous to Europe. That openness provides an opportunity which should be grasped rather than cavilled at.

Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I am glad that the Minister has begun to answer the questions I put to her a week last Friday. Is she aware that, since that date, the Select Committee of your Lordships' House has taken evidence? I am sure that she is, because she has mentioned it. We intend to carry out an inquiry into this subject. However, we have the gravest reservations. Perhaps the Minister will read the report published five years ago by the Select Committee. She will learn from that the reasons why, all that time ago,

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we set our face against such an organisation. I have to say that, for the life of me, I cannot see that anything has changed.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, obviously we shall be very interested to read the decisions of the European Union Committee and we are grateful that the matter has attracted the committee's attention. Circumstances have changed and we believe that this proposal needs to be looked at again. We hope that the committee will examine the proposals coming from the Commission to see whether they respect the statement of principles as regards what is best dealt with at European, national or regional level; in other words, to try to reach a political judgment on whether a proposal respected the competencies of the EU. The Government think that that is a useful role and should be explored. We very much welcome the vision that might be shared by others, and in particular we would welcome the erudite and informed way in which the committee has examined such matters in the past. We shall certainly give such views our deepest consideration.

Israeli/Palestinian Violence

3.15 p.m.

Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice; namely, whether Her Majesty's Government are aware of any representations which have been made to the Government of Israel regarding attacks by armed settlers on Arab inhabitants of East Nazareth and on Palestinian villages and what information they have on the lack of police protection and the use of live ammunition against unarmed civilians.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the Government have been appalled at the level of violence and casualties in Israel and in Palestinian areas over recent days. The Foreign Secretary spoke to Shlomo Ben-Ami, the Israeli Foreign Minister, on Saturday 7th October, to express his concern at the situation and to urge de-escalation.

At the Prime Minister's request, the Foreign Secretary is now visiting the region to support efforts to stop the violence and to bring both sides back to negotiations. He is meeting the Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, and Foreign Minister Ben-Ami this afternoon. This evening, he will meet Palestinian leaders, including President Arafat, and he plans to travel on to Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, perhaps I may thank the Minister for that reply and make one observation. With due humility, those of us who wish the state of Israel every possible success are very much aware, from our own experience of Northern Ireland, of the escalation that follows the use of armed force against unarmed civilians.

Perhaps I may ask the Minister the following question. I understand that Mr Barak says that he would accept a tribunal of inquiry into the

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disturbances provided it was led by the United States. To that end, we all recognise the contribution that President Clinton is attempting to make. I further understand that the Palestinian authorities wish to add to that committee of inquiry. Can the Minister say whether she thinks that there might be a possibility of that inquiry now moving ahead, possibly with an additional representative from one of the Arab states and, if I may so suggest, a representative from one of the EU states, given that the EU now pays for the great majority of the expenditure of the civil authority in the Palestinian areas of the region?

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