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Viscount Astor: I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. As he knows, I was not arguing for either the inclusion or exclusion of a particular organisation. I merely used the RSPCA as an example. But he has confirmed quite clearly that a large number of organisations which, whether they be charities, lobbying groups or whatever, will now fall within the provisions of Clause 80 as amended by these amendments.
It is important that we should all recognise that. I suspect that many of the organisations do not realise at the moment that they may be caught by the provisions of the Bill and some of them may be quite surprised to find that they must register. I do not know what consultation the Government have undertaken in regard to those organisations. We shall want to consider this matter between now and Report stage. I am sure that representatives of many of the organisations involved will want to come along and talk to the Government about it.
As amended, this clause has broadened the ambit of those organisations which might be included. The Government have made an important statement that they wish those organisations to be included. We shall all wish to read carefully what the Minister has said.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: We made it quite clear both in the White Paper and also when the draft Bill was published that those organisations would fall to be caught within the terms of the legislation if they campaigned in that particular way. They are on notice, understand and appreciate that.
The noble Viscount may well have a point on this matter but we have not received any particularly strong reaction or backlash against this. Charities and voluntary organisations understand the implications of the legislation and realise that it is quite right that they should be regulated.
Viscount Astor: I am sure that the Minister is right but he will not receive representations until the organisations concerned have seen the amendments which define and explain the Government's thinking. Amendment No. 208X crosses the "i"s and dots the "t"s. I believe that this will come as surprise for some of those organisations. I do not comment as to whether it will be a good or bad surprise. That is an issue which we shall want to consider. However, the reason for this debate is to clarify the government thinking behind Clause 80 and the issues raised. I am grateful for the Minister's explanation. I am sure that we shall look at this area again when we come to Report stage.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bach moved Amendments Nos. 208Y to 208YB:
- Page 51, leave out lines 40 to 43 and insert--
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 80, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 81 [Notional controlled expenditure]:
Lord Bach moved Amendments Nos. 208YC to 208YF:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 81, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 82 [Expenditure by third parties which is not controlled expenditure]:
Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 208YG:
[Amendment No. 209 not moved.]
Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 209A:
Viscount Astor moved Amendment No. 210:
It then mentions "newspaper or periodical". This is a probing amendment. Supposing, like the noble Lord's friend, Mr Robinson, a Member in another place, one buys a magazine such as the New Statesman, what would happen if one wanted to publish an advertisement that is covered by the Bill? Buying a magazine may be cheaper than buying a newspaper, but plenty of newspapers appear to be up for sale at the moment so it may be cheaper to buy a newspaper or a magazine than to place an advertisement. Would that count? I beg to move.
("(a) if the third party is an individual, that individual;
(b) if the third party is a registered party--
(i) the treasurer of the party, or
(ii) in the case of a minor party, the person for the time being notified to the Commission by the party in accordance with section 83(3)(b)(iii); and
(c) otherwise, the person or officer for the time being notified to the Commission by the third party in accordance with section 83(3)(c)(ii).").
Page 52, leave out lines 1 and 2 and insert--
("(b) subject to subsection (7A), any registered party.
(7A) In connection with the application of subsection (2) in relation to expenses incurred by or on behalf of a third party which is a registered party, any reference in subsection (2A) to a registered party or registered parties or to any candidates does not include--
(a) the party itself, or
(b) any candidates standing in the name of the party at any relevant election or included in any list submitted by the party in connection with any such election,
as the case may be.").
Page 52, line 2, at end insert--
("( ) In this section "candidates" includes future candidates, whether identifiable or not.").
Page 52, line 3, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert--
("(1) This section applies where, in the case of a third party--
(a) either--
(i) property is transferred to the third party free of charge or at a discount of more than 10 per cent. of its market value, or
(ii) property, services or facilities is or are provided for the use or benefit of the third party free of charge or at a discount of more than 10 per cent. of the commercial rate for the use of the property or for the provision of the services or facilities, and
(b) the property, services or facilities is or are made use of by or on behalf of the third party in circumstances such that, if any expenses were to be (or are) actually incurred by or on behalf of the third party in respect of that use, they would be (or are) controlled expenditure incurred by or on behalf of the third party.
(1A) Where this section applies, an amount of controlled expenditure determined in accordance with this section ("the appropriate amount") shall be treated, for the purposes of this Part, as incurred by the third party during the period for which the property, services or facilities is or are made use of as mentioned in subsection (1)(b).
This subsection has effect subject to section 82.
(1B) Where subsection (1)(a)(i) applies, the appropriate amount is such proportion of either--
(a) the market value of the property (where the property is transferred free of charge), or
(b) the difference between the market value of the property and the amount of expenses actually incurred by or on behalf of the third party in respect of the property (where the property is transferred at a discount),
as is reasonably attributable to the use made of the property as mentioned in subsection (1)(b).
(1C) Where subsection (1)(a)(ii) applies, the appropriate amount is such proportion of either--
(a) the commercial rate for the use of the property or the provision of the services or facilities (where the property, services or facilities is or are provided free of charge), or
(b) the difference between that commercial rate and the amount of expenses actually incurred by or on behalf of the third party in respect of the use of the property or the provision of the services or facilities (where the property, services or facilities is or are provided at a discount),
as is reasonably attributable to the use made of the property, services or facilities as mentioned in subsection (1)(b).").
Page 52, line 30, leave out ("and") and insert ("or").
Page 52, line 37, leave out subsection (4) and insert--
("(4) Where an amount of controlled expenditure is treated, by virtue of subsection (1A), as incurred by or on behalf of a third party during any period the whole or part of which falls within any period which is a regulated period (as defined by section 89(6)(a)), then--
(a) the amount mentioned in subsection (4A) shall be treated as incurred by or on behalf of the third party during the regulated period, and
(b) if a return falls to be prepared under section 91 in respect of controlled expenditure incurred by or on behalf of the third party during that period, the responsible person shall make a declaration of that amount,
unless that amount is less than £200.
(4A) The amount mentioned in subsection (4) is such proportion of the appropriate amount (determined in accordance with subsection (1B) or (1C)) as reasonably represents the use made of the property, services or facilities as mentioned in subsection (1)(b) during the regulated period.").
Page 52, line 45, at end insert--
("( ) Paragraph 2(3) and (4)(a) of Schedule 10 shall apply with any necessary modifications for the purpose of determining, for the purposes of subsection (1), whether property is transferred to a third party.").
Page 53, line 5, leave out ("(otherwise than by the third party)").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Page 53, line 10, leave out from ("of") to end of line 12 and insert ("expenses falls (in accordance with any enactment) to be included in a return as to election expenses in respect of a candidate or candidates at a particular election,").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Page 53, line 15, leave out paragraph (a).
The noble Viscount said: I understand the purpose of the Government's intentions in this Bill. The Bill reads:
"publication of any matter relating to an election, other than in an advertisement".
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